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Author Topic: One thing no one can disprove...  (Read 26994 times)

Offline Jusdewit8

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One thing no one can disprove...
« on: October 13, 2014, 08:19:01 AM »
...or satisfactorily explain, IMO: America's  Elite Status and Sole Bragging Rights
Jus for grins, let's pretend we really had men walking on the moon.  What on Earth made USA so supreme, so untouchable, so perfectly unique that no other country, nation or people has duplicated our "incredible feat"?
We're supposed to believe Japan, China, Russia etc. were all just so proud of America's accomplishments they have forever since been willing to vicariously study the moon via USA hero's travels?  PPPFFFFT!

No one else has been to the moon because no one has been to the moon, period. 

Kennedy challenged us to win the race to the moon:
Quote

We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too.

It is for these reasons that I regard the decision last year to shift our efforts in space from low to high gear as among the most important decisions that will be made during my incumbency in the office of the Presidency.

John F. Kennedy,
Speech at Rice University, Houston, September 12, 1962

The "powers that be" and "a few good men" decided they'd be damned if we were going to lose the race and disappoint our beloved President, and then by hook or by crook they did what they had to do to keep from losing face.  Even if that meant lying through their teeth to do it.  Pride could not allow them to do anything less, no matter the consequences. 

If neither Buzz Aldrin nor Neil Armstrong  had it in them to swear on the Bible they had walked on the moon, why on Earth should we believe they did? 

Offline Sinny

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Re: One thing no one can disprove...
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2014, 09:29:04 AM »
What exactly are we supposed to be disproving?

And a more appropriate scenario would be that the other nations have not publicly gone to the moon, because someone else is occupying it.
"The very word "secrecy" is repugnant in a free and open society"- JFK

Offline Wrabbit2000

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Re: One thing no one can disprove...
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2014, 09:50:33 AM »
It's always interesting to hear the varieties of ways people disbelieve something that didn't simply happen once, but happened so many times that it became boring and didn't even rate full news coverage on each of them, toward the end. Putting aside that Russia was watching our missions as close or closer than NASA itself was, and would have needed to be in full cooperation for their own humiliation in losing the "race"? There is another factor my Father was always quick to note as a product of the 60's and Vietnam.

Given the state of technology then, and how primitive it was by comparison? (He didn't even have hydraulics on his ship's gun mounts..and I recall how long it took him to get the meaning of that across to a young mind once. It's hard for us to imagine) It is literally true to say it would have required MORE work and innovation to fake it convincingly and well enough to stand without contradictory proof 40+ years later than it did to actually do it. Sure...doing it for real, really got some people killed and it wouldn't have if it had all been sound stage fantasy. Faking it would have risked a Government and the future of a nation, had it gone even a bit wrong.

After all, a good % of the adults in THAT time period had PERSONALLY fought in World War II, Korea or both. They weren't modern couch potatoes.

There is another question I've had since building out a whole section on the Apollo/Mercury programs for a web site once? The Saturn V Rockets were true wonders of the age. The shook the very Earth they departed from and could be FELT by people from far away, let alone heard and seen.

If no one ever left NEO? Where did the dozen plus missions go after half of Florida saw them launch, and a whole Aircraft Carrier saw them picked up, thousands of miles away and in the middle of the open ocean?

There are a few more factors of common sense to debunk here, I'm thinking.  ;)

Offline Sinny

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Re: One thing no one can disprove...
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2014, 09:56:10 AM »
I believe Kennedy made that promise because he had discovered we had all ready been to the moon, and as it is an historical leap, he couldn't allow the public to be kept in the dark.

I do not believe we travelled there by the means stated to us.

And I believe the moon ventures have gone quite since Apollo 17 due to non-public disputes and stand off's.

Someone's up there, I'd bet my life on it.
"The very word "secrecy" is repugnant in a free and open society"- JFK

Offline Glaucon

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Re: One thing no one can disprove...
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2014, 12:09:48 PM »
     We were in an Arms Race during a post scientific enlightenment. Imagine if Nazi-Germany was able to under take V1/V2 development in a non-war environment and subsequently developed the capacity to truly capitalize on the industrialization of advanced research and development? I won't entertain the common 'what if' specifics and the impacts that industry would have had on deterrence prior to Soviet/Allies engagement. Let alone the tactical combat capacity that a sustainable industry could nourish, under Nazi control.
I'm trying to keep it simple here...

     But those are more or less the reverberations that echoed consistently and progressively throughout leaders and their cabinets who, unfortunately, were often scientifically illiterate and incapable. The most protected 'State secrets' were simply the fruits of scientists in both the Soviet Union and the United States. Capability wasn't intelligence, it was counter intelligence, the proprietary knowledge was the intelligence and it was stubbornly assumed that there was an end-game in Military oriented scientific research.


 :D Problem is, Science is progressive and it's institution is public.
The Apollo program, in my opinion, was an indirect reactionary response to this 'troubling' truth about the breadth of scientific feasibility. The Apollo program had both the intention to make the USSR a 'loser', but far more importantly, demonstrated that the United States is capable of utilizing cutting edge science in programs/operations of a magnitude in scale that the USSR could not possibly dream of.

"The beginning of wisdom comes with the definition of terms" -Socrates

"..that the people being ignorant, and always discontented, to lay the foundation of government in the unsteady opinion and uncertain humour of the people, is to expose it to certain ruin" -Locke

Offline Glaucon

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Re: One thing no one can disprove...
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2014, 12:12:09 PM »
American 'Elitism' is a misrepresentation.
"The beginning of wisdom comes with the definition of terms" -Socrates

"..that the people being ignorant, and always discontented, to lay the foundation of government in the unsteady opinion and uncertain humour of the people, is to expose it to certain ruin" -Locke

Offline Jusdewit8

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Re: One thing no one can disprove...
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2014, 02:51:26 AM »
Sinny-I should have said one thing no one can explain.  Disprove was the wrong word to use for my statement. 

Offline Pimander

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Re: One thing no one can disprove...
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2014, 05:54:12 AM »
[youtube]XtW72nT7cYQ[/youtube]


Offline Jusdewit8

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Re: One thing no one can disprove...
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2014, 06:13:09 AM »
Ohhhhh....I do so wish I could figure out how to post pics and videos.  Love the one you added!  Found a couple more things just last night I'd really like to share, but despite searching, haven't figured out how to do that yet...*sigh* (technologically impaired) lol

Offline Sgt.Rocknroll

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Re: One thing no one can disprove...
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2014, 06:48:53 AM »
It's always interesting to hear the varieties of ways people disbelieve something that didn't simply happen once, but happened so many times that it became boring and didn't even rate full news coverage on each of them, toward the end. Putting aside that Russia was watching our missions as close or closer than NASA itself was, and would have needed to be in full cooperation for their own humiliation in losing the "race"? There is another factor my Father was always quick to note as a product of the 60's and Vietnam.

Given the state of technology then, and how primitive it was by comparison? (He didn't even have hydraulics on his ship's gun mounts..and I recall how long it took him to get the meaning of that across to a young mind once. It's hard for us to imagine) It is literally true to say it would have required MORE work and innovation to fake it convincingly and well enough to stand without contradictory proof 40+ years later than it did to actually do it. Sure...doing it for real, really got some people killed and it wouldn't have if it had all been sound stage fantasy. Faking it would have risked a Government and the future of a nation, had it gone even a bit wrong.

After all, a good % of the adults in THAT time period had PERSONALLY fought in World War II, Korea or both. They weren't modern couch potatoes.

There is another question I've had since building out a whole section on the Apollo/Mercury programs for a web site once? The Saturn V Rockets were true wonders of the age. The shook the very Earth they departed from and could be FELT by people from far away, let alone heard and seen.

If no one ever left NEO? Where did the dozen plus missions go after half of Florida saw them launch, and a whole Aircraft Carrier saw them picked up, thousands of miles away and in the middle of the open ocean?

There are a few more factors of common sense to debunk here, I'm thinking.  ;)

If the Saturn V was a true wonder of the age as you put it. Would you please post the Saturn V construction drawings? I'm not talking about the few (I have them) general arrangement drawings, but the actual constructions drawings?...Are they still classified after 40 years or so?
Not saying they didn't exist or launched but we have all the Apollo/Mercury/Gemini drawings, just not the Saturn V...
Now circling the earth several times, cut to the studio for the landing on the moon and eventually, coming back to Earth and cut to the CBS/NBC/ABC newsfeeds...Ahhh there you have it...

Some of you guys are new here and I'll also include some that have been here for a very long time, try, OH TRY going to www.thelivingmoon.com and do some reading... ::)

http://www.thelivingmoon.com/45jack_files/02archives/Apollo_Reality.html

Oh and btw,,,the shielding on the Apollo craft were woefully inadequate for going to the moon...Just saying.. ;D

« Last Edit: November 01, 2014, 07:13:09 AM by Sgt.Rocknroll »
Non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed nomini Tuo da gloriam

Offline Pimander

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Re: One thing no one can disprove...
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2014, 09:01:50 AM »
Apollo was a PR sham.  They won't engage on the technology because they don't even know how to do it now.

Quote
Not like Apollo

Despite the apparent ease of past lunar exploration radiation-wise, such as NASA's successful Apollo moon landings, without adequate shielding long-term occupation of the moon and space exploration may remain out of reach, researchers said.

"A lot of people think about the Apollo astronauts, and that they didn't have much protection and were fine," Lane told SPACE.com. "But in Apollo, it was a very short mission and a lot of it was basically luck. I'm not sure how they managed to be so lucky, but I don't think you can count on luck on short missions for the future or trips to the planets."

Researchers have said that a major radiation event during the any of six Apollo moon landings could have been catastrophic to the astronauts who carried them out. But Apollo crews lived on the moon for days at most, while long-term mission will run much longer.

Radiation from galactic cosmic rays or solar particles, however, would be extremely likely to affect a long-duration stay on the moon, researchers said.
http://www.space.com/658-lunar-shields-radiation-protection-moon-based-astronauts.html

The John quoted above is,  John Lane, an applications scientist with ASRC Aerospace Corp. at Kennedy Space Center (KSC). "We're concerned about charged particle radiation."

Lane doesn't know how Apollo could be so lucky?  I bet he has guessed.  Well I'll tell you how.  They faked it.  It's bleedin' obvious.

I tell you, we have disclosure.  They are practically admitting they could not send men to the Moon with Apollo here: http://www.lpi.usra.edu/lunar/documents/NTRS/collection3/NASA_TP_3079.pdf

Here is Buhler and Lane's practical solution for a Moon base. Don't forget this is from a NASA site. ::)


Above: Artist’s concept of an electrostatic radiation shield, consisting of positively charged inner spheres and negatively charged outer spheres. The screen net is connected to ground. Image courtesy ASRC Aerospace. http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2005/24jun_electrostatics/

Yes, I've seen the pics with little shiny dots that are supposed to be the Lunar rover etc.  Well we didn't get those pics in the 60s, 70s or 80s did we?  I'll let the reader decide why that is. :)

Offline petrus4

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Re: One thing no one can disprove...
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2014, 09:48:30 AM »
American 'Elitism' is a misrepresentation.

No, it really is not.  I know about the Project For The New American Century.  American exceptionalism, elitism, and hubris is the bane of the rest of humanity.

As for the Moon; Apathy might be a serious social problem, but who cares?

a}  I don't believe the landing was a hoax.  I haven't bothered to read too much about the conspiracy theories concerning it, mainly because I reflexively think the whole thing is dumb, to be honest; but those I have seen, have done nothing to persuade me of my hunch regarding it.

b}  We haven't been back for at least two reasons.  The first is that there at least seems to be questionable value in doing so, at least from a resource standpoint; we're essentially talking about a barren, airless piece of rock.  Perhaps Zorgon will correct me with regards to mineable resources, though. 

The second or less mainstream reason, however, is the idea that ETs are already there, and they do not want us there.  David Icke of course thinks the Moon is entirely artificial; something that I disagree with, given its' beneficial roles in Terran ecology.  (The tides, the female menstrual cycle, etc)  I know about Icke's claim that the Earth was supposedly a paradise before the lizard people brought the Moon here, but I'm going to need some sort of evidence for theories of that magnitude.  I'm prepared to believe in a lot of things which most people would consider crankish, but I have my limits.

While I used to be equally apathetic towards space exploration more generally, I've recently come to view it as a social necessity.  This is because the sort of fascist psychopaths who did so well for themselves economically back during the colonial era are still being born, but because there is no new territory for them to conquer, they are in serious danger of destroying the entire planet.  We need to give such people a new focus for their ambitions, and preferably also a place to live which is located an appropriate distance away from the rest of us.

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Offline petrus4

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Re: One thing no one can disprove...
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2014, 09:54:19 AM »
Apollo was a PR sham.  They won't engage on the technology because they don't even know how to do it now.

This is, of course, the other reason why I remain skeptical about space exploration.  Our existing methods are to spacefaring, what placing each of your legs on the side of a hollow log was in maritime terms.  It is embarassingly primitive.

Putting it simply, we don't have the technology to go into space at the current time; and strapping people to what is essentially a giant firecracker is guaranteed to get at least several of them killed.
"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburgers."
        — Abbie Hoffman

Offline ArMaP

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Re: One thing no one can disprove...
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2014, 09:57:07 AM »
It is embarassingly primitive.
But it works. :)

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