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Author Topic: AI Robots more dangerous than Nukes?  (Read 8286 times)

Offline RUSSO

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Re: AI Robots more dangerous than Nukes?
« Reply #105 on: November 20, 2017, 02:12:30 AM »
No problem and no resistance, I am only wondering why he sounds so worried with that particular technology. :)

Well its not just him, there is a lot of people concerned about the potential risks the technology presents.

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No, as the situation is not the same, AI is something that is widely used in many countries, with many private and public organisations studying it.

Its kind of the same thing, at the time there was more nations working on the bomb, but USA was the first. Think about if it was nazy germany?

Regarding the "risk meter" between the bomb and AI, one may make the assumption they are not in the same level of risk but I would be very careful in saying that, cause AI robots and nanotechnology seems a very, very dangerous recipe.

We tend to think about AI robots as something "ethereal" because we dont see it in the streets yet, but this will change and the people reactions will be very interesting to see. Soon enough.

And then, there is something Elon point out i find really disturbing, He says 12% of the jobs in the world are related to transportation and it will be the firt jobs we will see vanishing in a mass scale. How the nations will handle it? It will be a mess...
"Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

"It's time to treat people with the same degree of importance they treat you."

"The slyness when too much, grows, get bigger, turns into a beast and eat the owner."

Offline RUSSO

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Re: AI Robots more dangerous than Nukes?
« Reply #106 on: November 20, 2017, 02:13:50 AM »
We're living in the bloody Terminator film.

I find the Matrix approach even more disturbing ;)
"Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

"It's time to treat people with the same degree of importance they treat you."

"The slyness when too much, grows, get bigger, turns into a beast and eat the owner."

Offline ArMaP

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Re: AI Robots more dangerous than Nukes?
« Reply #107 on: November 20, 2017, 02:59:27 PM »
Well its not just him, there is a lot of people concerned about the potential risks the technology presents.
I know, but I was talking about him. :)

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Its kind of the same thing, at the time there was more nations working on the bomb, but USA was the first.
It's not, as they were working on something new, they were all learning as they went along. AI is something that has been around for around 60 years.

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Regarding the "risk meter" between the bomb and AI, one may make the assumption they are not in the same level of risk but I would be very careful in saying that, cause AI robots and nanotechnology seems a very, very dangerous recipe.
It's a different kind of risk, AI is less likely to kill thousands in one event like an atom bomb, AI is more likely to be bad like a virus.

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We tend to think about AI robots as something "ethereal" because we dont see it in the streets yet, but this will change and the people reactions will be very interesting to see. Soon enough.
That's another misconception, that AI only applies to robots. AI is not linked to robots, it can (and is) applied to any computer like device. Also, as I said before, those self driving cars are really robots, and while most people think they are not here, the fact is that there are already several cars that park by themselves, so when they do it they are acting as robots.

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And then, there is something Elon point out i find really disturbing, He says 12% of the jobs in the world are related to transportation and it will be the firt jobs we will see vanishing in a mass scale. How the nations will handle it? It will be a mess...
That's why they call them industrial revolutions. :)

Offline RUSSO

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Re: AI Robots more dangerous than Nukes?
« Reply #108 on: November 20, 2017, 04:03:56 PM »
I know, but I was talking about him. :)

Fair enough.

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It's not, as they were working on something new, they were all learning as they went along. AI is something that has been around for around 60 years

We can't really tell for sure for how long they were worKing on the bomb at that time, so in my point of view, its the same thing. :)

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It's a different kind of risk, AI is less likely to kill thousands in one event like an atom bomb, AI is more likely to be bad like a virus.

Virus can kill thousants in one event too... Nanothecnology + robots + AI,  dangerous recipe.

It reminds me the black mirror episode where a guy try to use robot bees to mass murder in USA. Fiction? We see art imitating life and vice versa all the time.

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That's another misconception, that AI only applies to robots. AI is not linked to robots, it can (and is) applied to any computer like device. Also, as I said before, those self driving cars are really robots, and while most people think they are not here, the fact is that there are already several cars that park by themselves, so when they do it they are acting as robots.

And yet people don't realise it. I think its because cars are common sense and trivial for some generations that they look to a car and can only see a car, even if it act as a robot.

Imagine the shock when they start to see what they are used to perceive as a robot ("archetype"), i mean, the "average joe" common sense, walking in the streets or in places of common use...

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That's why they call them industrial revolutions. :)

Right... But I think people 100 year in the future will call this period of time the begining of the AI relovoution or Robot revolution or even the blend of the nomenclatures. :)


"Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

"It's time to treat people with the same degree of importance they treat you."

"The slyness when too much, grows, get bigger, turns into a beast and eat the owner."

Offline ArMaP

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Re: AI Robots more dangerous than Nukes?
« Reply #109 on: November 20, 2017, 05:37:57 PM »
We can't really tell for sure for how long they were worKing on the bomb at that time, so in my point of view, its the same thing. :)
If we accept the official story nuclear fission was discovered only one year before they started working on the bomb.

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Virus can kill thousants in one event too... Nanothecnology + robots + AI,  dangerous recipe.
One virus cannot kill one person, much less thousands, millions of virus can kill a person.

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Imagine the shock when they start to see what they are used to perceive as a robot ("archetype"), i mean, the "average joe" common sense, walking in the streets or in places of common use...
I don't think there will be a shock, as it would be, like everything else, gradual.

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Right... But I think people 100 year in the future will call this period of time the begining of the AI relovoution or Robot revolution or even the blend of the nomenclatures. :)
Maybe, but I doubt it.

Offline RUSSO

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Re: AI Robots more dangerous than Nukes?
« Reply #110 on: November 20, 2017, 06:16:43 PM »
If we accept the official story nuclear fission was discovered only one year before they started working on the bomb.

When it comes to military "things", that is a big IF.

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One virus cannot kill one person, much less thousands, millions of virus can kill a person.

Is it not common sense that a virus replicate in the human body?

I though it was implicit. But yes a virus proliferates in the human body .. it means it does not act alone. It can kill millions, just like an atom bomb.:)

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I don't think there will be a shock, as it would be, like everything else, gradual.

Even when gradual, it cause awe... Just like the first time someone saw an iphone, or a computer or a car, or an UFO.
"Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

"It's time to treat people with the same degree of importance they treat you."

"The slyness when too much, grows, get bigger, turns into a beast and eat the owner."

Offline ArMaP

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Re: AI Robots more dangerous than Nukes?
« Reply #111 on: November 20, 2017, 06:24:08 PM »
When it comes to military "things", that is a big IF.
The discovery was not military.

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Is it not common sense that a virus replicate in the human body?

I though it was implicit. But yes a virus proliferates in the human body .. it means it does not act alone. It can kill millions, just like an atom bomb.:)
If it replicates then it's not one, and the replication takes time. In many cases one virus alone can be defeated.

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Even when gradual, it cause awe... Just like the first time someone saw an iphone, or a computer or a car, or an UFO.
I suppose so, but as that never happens to me I'm not a good judge of awesomeness. :)

Offline RUSSO

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Re: AI Robots more dangerous than Nukes?
« Reply #112 on: November 20, 2017, 06:31:58 PM »
The discovery was not military.

It was under their control. Manhattan Project under the direction of Major General Leslie Groves of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers.

The discover of the bomb was military. Probably they worked hard on the nuclear fission glimpsing to make the bomb as the main objective to end the war among other things. So nuclear fission is a discover driven by military purposes and it was probably a race to see who would discover a way to do it first during the whole war.

Lucky us that Otto Hahn was against the use of nuclear energy as a weapon and an anti nazy, or we could be living on a factual third reich.

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If it replicates then it's not one, and the replication takes time. In many cases one virus alone can be defeated

We are not talking of a common virus, a natural virus remember? AI + nanobots acting like a virus.

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I suppose so, but as that never happens to me I'm not a good judge of awesomeness. :)

Fair enough. But im talking about standart humans ArMaP...

Not super humans like you :P

« Last Edit: November 20, 2017, 09:42:44 PM by RUSSO »
"Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

"It's time to treat people with the same degree of importance they treat you."

"The slyness when too much, grows, get bigger, turns into a beast and eat the owner."

Offline Irene

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Re: AI Robots more dangerous than Nukes?
« Reply #113 on: November 21, 2017, 12:25:21 PM »
ArMaP,

The concept of nuclear fission originated with Leo Szilard in 1933.

The first working pile was powered up in Chicago in 1942. By that time the military was onboard.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 12:28:15 PM by Irene »
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Offline ArMaP

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Re: AI Robots more dangerous than Nukes?
« Reply #114 on: November 21, 2017, 12:48:23 PM »
It was under their control. Manhattan Project under the direction of Major General Leslie Groves of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers.
The discovery of nuclear fission was made in 1938, before the Manhattan Project. Also, several people were studying and working in that area, and they talked to each other, it wasn't a secret owned by one country.

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The discover of the bomb was military.
That was not a discovery, it was a way of using the energy released by a chain reaction.

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Probably they worked hard on the nuclear fission glimpsing to make the bomb as the main objective to end the war among other things. So nuclear fission is a discover driven by military purposes and it was probably a race to see who would discover a way to do it first during the whole war.
Nuclear fission and chain reactions were discovered before the start of WWII.

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Lucky us that Otto Hahn was against the use of nuclear energy as a weapon and an anti nazy, or we could be living on a factual third reich.
I doubt it, Germany didn't have enough resources for that, both human and material, and they dispersed many investigation groups at the start of the was, as they thought having fighting men was more important.

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We are not talking of a common virus, a natural virus remember? AI + nanobots acting like a virus.
I couldn't remember something I didn't know, when I talked about virus I was talking about natural virus.

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Fair enough. But im talking about standart humans ArMaP...

Not super humans like you :P
;D

Offline ArMaP

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Re: AI Robots more dangerous than Nukes?
« Reply #115 on: November 21, 2017, 12:50:52 PM »
ArMaP,

The concept of nuclear fission originated with Leo Szilard in 1933.

The first working pile was powered up in Chicago in 1942. By that time the military was onboard.
By that time, yes, but they didn't start it, that's what I was saying, it was not a military investigation that lead to it.

What the military did was create the technology necessary to use it. In the case of AI it would be something like creating a programming language better suited to be applied to a new kind of AI.

Offline RUSSO

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Re: AI Robots more dangerous than Nukes?
« Reply #116 on: November 21, 2017, 02:09:33 PM »
The discovery of nuclear fission was made in 1938, before the Manhattan Project. Also, several people were studying and working in that area, and they talked to each other, it wasn't a secret owned by one country.

I was talking about the bomb.

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That was not a discovery, it was a way of using the energy released by a chain reaction.

A way to use energy released by a chain reaction is a discover. People need to realise that.

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Nuclear fission and chain reactions were discovered before the start of WWII.

What I meant was accelerate, refine the studies on how to implement, to put into effect the nuclear fission to make the bomb.

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I doubt it, Germany didn't have enough resources for that, both human and material, and they dispersed many investigation groups at the start of the was, as they thought having fighting men was more important.

But it is not a certain. There are many arguments as to why Nazi Germany was unable to develop an atomic bomb during World War II. There was evidence of sabotage and evidence of simple failure.

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I couldn't remember something I didn't know, when I talked about virus I was talking about natural virus.

But this thread is about AI and Robots... The whole point of my posts were to discuss the dangerous of it.

So AI Robots more dangerous than Nukes? In my opinion it could be. If not because they could become self aware and turn against us, there is the risk of a totalitarian government or a private association using it to create a dystopian reality. :)
"Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

"It's time to treat people with the same degree of importance they treat you."

"The slyness when too much, grows, get bigger, turns into a beast and eat the owner."

Offline ArMaP

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Re: AI Robots more dangerous than Nukes?
« Reply #117 on: November 21, 2017, 02:31:44 PM »
I was talking about the bomb.
I wasn't, that way it would be hard for us to agree, each one was talking about one thing. :)

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A way to use energy released by a chain reaction is a discover. People need to realise that.
I don't see solving a problem as a discovery, I see a discovery as something unexpected, solving a problem is just that, finding a solution. And the case was not really how to use the energy released by a chain reaction, as the energy release is a bomb by itself, they needed to have some kind of control of how it went.

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What I meant was accelerate, refine the studies on how to implement, to put into effect the nuclear fission to make the bomb.
Again, we were talking about different things. It would be easier (maybe) if we were talking in Portuguese. ;)

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But it is not a certain. There are many arguments as to why Nazi Germany was unable to develop an atomic bomb during World War II. There was evidence of sabotage and evidence of simple failure.
And, as I said, many evidences that the Nazis thought that they wouldn't need all those scientists in the labs as they would win the war with they blitzkrieg. When they saw they could not then they put the (remaining) scientists back on the labs, but it was too late and they put them to work on specific things, like jet aeroplanes and rockets.

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But this thread is about AI and Robots... The whole point of my posts were to discuss the dangerous of it.
Yes, but the first reference to virus was made by me, and I was talking about natural virus.

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So AI Robots more dangerous than Nukes? In my opinion it could be. If not because they could become self aware and turn against us, there is the risk of a totalitarian government or a private association using it to create a dystopian reality. :)
I think it's mostly a different kind of dangerous, as robots are not dangerous just by existing, while a nuclear bomb is always a dangerous thing. Also, a nuclear bomb that goes off cannot be contained in any way, while rogue AI can (at least at first) be controlled.

Unless they get nuclear bombs.  :P

Offline RUSSO

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Re: AI Robots more dangerous than Nukes?
« Reply #118 on: November 21, 2017, 03:16:28 PM »
I wasn't, that way it would be hard for us to agree, each one was talking about one thing. :)

 :D

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I don't see solving a problem as a discovery, I see a discovery as something unexpected, solving a problem is just that, finding a solution. And the case was not really how to use the energy released by a chain reaction, as the energy release is a bomb by itself, they needed to have some kind of control of how it went.

Discovery to me is to obtain sight or knowledge of something for the first time in the sense that you can have many applications to energy released by a chain reaction.

Let's suppose that someone find out today an unprecedented use to it that was never thought before. In my point of view it would be a discover.

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Again, we were talking about different things. It would be easier (maybe) if we were talking in Portuguese. ;)

 ;D True that. Maybe its time to us make a section on this site for the PT/BR public... :P

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When they saw they could not then they put the (remaining) scientists back on the labs, but it was too late and they put them to work on specific things, like jet aeroplanes and rockets.

And on the atom bomb...As i said.. IF (and this is a big if) they had achieve it first we could be living in a world were Nazis won the war

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Yes, but the first reference to virus was made by me, and I was talking about natural virus.

When you said "AI is more likely to be bad like a virus" i assumed you were talking about virus in a AI based context. I think I will start talking with you by PMs first, and then post :P

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Unless they get nuclear bombs.  :P

Anti-mimesis Oscar Wilde style: "Life imitates Art far more than Art imitates Life"


« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 03:19:11 PM by RUSSO »
"Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

"It's time to treat people with the same degree of importance they treat you."

"The slyness when too much, grows, get bigger, turns into a beast and eat the owner."

Offline Irene

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Re: AI Robots more dangerous than Nukes?
« Reply #119 on: November 21, 2017, 04:06:00 PM »
By that time, yes, but they didn't start it, that's what I was saying, it was not a military investigation that lead to it.

What the military did was create the technology necessary to use it. In the case of AI it would be something like creating a programming language better suited to be applied to a new kind of AI.

Right. Actually, most of the time the scientists spent was on the weaponization after the research was militarized.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 04:07:31 PM by Irene »
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