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Author Topic: The Ethical Planetarian Platform; Revision 002  (Read 30499 times)

Offline petrus4

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Re: The Ethical Planetarian Platform; Revision 002
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2012, 08:05:58 AM »
And when the majority do not you are in a position to change things democratically.  To politically disengage is foolish and delays the transition.

The only problem is that trying to change the system from within, doesn't work.  In the very rare case that you do start to get somewhere, you will be intercepted; and either bought off in one way or another, or otherwise destroyed if the carrot approach doesn't win you over.

The main difference between Zorgon and myself, if I am truly, brutally honest, is that as an aspiring alpha, he is actually successful.  The single main reason why I have not been successful, is because of my own level of internal conflict; for the most part, I genuinely do believe it's wrong.  Politics would be absolute moral suicide for me, because I am a narcissist, I can have a temper, and I have far too much of a desire for money than I am usually comfortable with admitting, as well.

Zorgon has embraced his dark side, or at least what I would usually interpret as darkness.  I, on the other hand, keep the beast caged.  That is the main reason why at times he has been capable of antagonising me to the extent that he does.  His own example is forcing me to confront an element of my own nature (more than one, in fact) which I am not prepared to accept.
"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburgers."
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Offline Pimander

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Re: The Ethical Planetarian Platform; Revision 002
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2012, 06:51:43 AM »
The only problem is that trying to change the system from within, doesn't work.
I'd agree if you mean from within one of the two parties in a two party state.  But politics just isn't limited to that.  It simply is not true.  Also politics does not necessarily just involve changing from within.  It is a political aim top change any system.

"The system" has changed in the past.  Sometimes from within.  If it hadn't there would not be democracy in England for a start - where democracy in its modern form began.  Sometimes I think Americans can't see clearly beyond their own borders.  Do you not think that politics extends beyond the tiny population of USA and your two main parties? ::)

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The Great Reform Act of 1832 started the democratisation of British government - a process which some would argue is still ongoing.

During the last 100 years Parliament has extended the vote to women and drastically curbed the powers of the unelected House of Lords and passed some of its own sovereignty over to Europe.

But the process of Parliamentary change is still ongoing with devolution, the further reform of the House of Lords and perhaps reform of the electoral system itself all sure to make their presence felt in the years to come
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/96021.stm


In the very rare case that you do start to get somewhere, you will be intercepted; and either bought off in one way or another, or otherwise destroyed if the carrot approach doesn't win you over.
If that were true there would still be slavery i many countries where it was banned.  Women would not be allowed to vote in many states too.

Politics would be absolute moral suicide for me,
Perhaps for you.  That does not mean that all political change is a bad thing.


Mark my words.  Without a political move, the abundance paradigm is a pipe dream - probably for hundreds of years if not beyond an apocalypse.

Offline petrus4

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Re: The Ethical Planetarian Platform; Revision 002
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2012, 07:28:18 AM »
Mark my words.  Without a political move, the abundance paradigm is a pipe dream - probably for hundreds of years if not beyond an apocalypse.

The cabal have got the priorities of the majority completely sewn up at this point, Pimander.  You would have seen what Zorgon has written; millions of people would be willing to kill or die to defend the current system, irrespective of how detrimental it is to them.

I can only accomplish anything with people who already understand.  Amaterasu might consider herself a missionary, but I am not.  It doesn't work.  If it means we have to wait centuries, then perhaps we do; but the reality is that most people simply do not want what we are offering.  They have been taught not to want it.  They have been taught that it cannot work to such a degree, that they are not prepared to try.
"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburgers."
        — Abbie Hoffman

Offline Amaterasu

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Re: The Ethical Planetarian Platform; Revision 002
« Reply #33 on: November 10, 2012, 12:29:59 PM »
I am not a "missionary," Petrus.  I am a teacher.  I am here to teach People a better way, a new paradigm.  I offer My work and discuss it.  Some few "get it," and help the teaching efforts.

The more who teach, the closer We are to the tipping point.  The closer We are to unlearning the tripe of the scarcity paradigm controllers.
"If the universe is made of mostly Dark Energy...can We use it to run Our cars?"

"If You want peace, take the profit out of war."

Offline zorgon

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Re: The Ethical Planetarian Platform; Revision 002
« Reply #34 on: November 10, 2012, 06:32:15 PM »
but the reality is that most people simply do not want what we are offering.

But that is the main flaw in what you offer. The whole premise of your argument is that in the new paradigm people will be able to do what they want... yet what I am seeing in your arguments it only works if what people want is what you WANT them to want.

For this 'tipping point' to occur millions of minds would have to all think alike, yet even you and Amy have differences in opinion on how this can work

The Law of Attraction does work... but currently in our development we do not have the strength of mind to make that mountain Jesus told us about move from hither to yon, nor can anyone I know lift Luke's spaceship out of the mud. And I come from the mystery schools that teach this possibility.

You take a town of 100 people... 50 want it to rain today and 50 do not... so what happens, does it rain or not?  Well ONE person in that 100 might have the presence of mind enough to actually influence the weather because that one person has the discipline and the firm belief that they CAN make it rain...

So even if 50 people are haphazardly wish for sunshine, that one mind can make it rain

However, on something the scale of TAP, you will need a LOT of minds with a single clear focus and a firm belief that they can make it happen

Now evil men have know this for millenia. They can, by convincing people that they are the next thing to God, use the energy of that group for their own ends.  Hitler was a prime recent example... but in the end even his control was lost as people's opinions changed

He too promised a golden age of plenty... and it wasn't based on lies. That is why he became so popular so fast. But as he gained the power, so came the corruption and the rest, as they say, is History.

Cult leaders... same thing. By their charisma alone they get people to follow their dream, their goal. They even make them give up money and possessions to be allowed the privilege of joining.  Well maybe those Heaven's Gate people really did materialize that spaceship :D

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They have been taught not to want it.  They have been taught that it cannot work to such a degree, that they are not prepared to try.

So you would teach them your way, despite the fact that they may not want your way. So you justify yourself by saying they are wrong, they have been taught wrong and whatever. Your plan has three laws of compliance or they will be removed (as i understand it)

Kinda sounds like "My way or the highway"

Perhaps people might be persuaded to try it, if it can be shown that it is actually viable. I have seen Amy's sketch of an EG device. Well that box with a shaft and a propeller is as useless as a kid scribbling on a wall. There is nothing in that that shows a plausible working device that can be reproduced Just as shown there is not even a clear driving force.  You can't just toss in something like that and say "See? here is the device that will make all this happen" and show something like that device that has no indication of what it does, or how it works.

I believe and support the Law of Attraction, but you cannot just materialize a working EG device out of thin air, especially when you only have vague ideas how it even works or how it can be connected to our system

And to build a new infra structure requires TONS of money, many manufacturers to give up time to make these new devices that everyone will get to use for free. Now I can envision a rich eccentric billionaire being so magnanimous to give all that away free... but he would still need a working model to mass produce.

Offline zorgon

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Re: The Ethical Planetarian Platform; Revision 002
« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2012, 06:38:22 PM »
I can only accomplish anything with people who already understand.

And of those people that already understand that you speak of, how many of those are in a position to actively do something about it? I mean beyond believing or wishing for it?

Quote
Amaterasu might consider herself a missionary, but I am not.  It doesn't work.

Missionaries work to a point. The Jesuits converted a LOT of people over the centuries... (mostly with fear and brute force :P) Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons still send missionaries to my door. But Missionaries don't work very well on free thinkers :D  And this board has a lot of those

Offline zorgon

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Re: The Ethical Planetarian Platform; Revision 002
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2012, 06:49:29 PM »
Sometimes I think Americans can't see clearly beyond their own borders.  Do you not think that politics extends beyond the tiny population of USA and your two main parties? ::)

Well yeah but those areas outside our borders are the provinces :P  I seem to recall before America broke away from you Tea Tottlers that you once thought that way... that Britain was the only civilized nation in the world :P  something about that word 'EMPIRE" :D

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If that were true there would still be slavery i many countries where it was banned.  Women would not be allowed to vote in many states too.

Slavery is bad?  Oh  :P

Quote
Mark my words.  Without a political move, the abundance paradigm is a pipe dream - probably for hundreds of years if not beyond an apocalypse.

Well one thing is certain, while we debate the issue of cheap or free energy, the military industrialist are going full speed ahead using solar energy,synthetic fuel and oil and fusion power. :P So while we suffer THEY are making it happen for their own uses... and I see not one EG device being used by them to generate the AWESOME power that they produce. Easily enough to power the planet several times over

Offline Amaterasu

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Re: The Ethical Planetarian Platform; Revision 002
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2012, 07:18:34 PM »
And of those people that already understand that you speak of, how many of those are in a position to actively do something about it? I mean beyond believing or wishing for it?

Every single One who "gets it," z, is in a position to do something about it.  Since the first step is spreading awareness to the tipping point, all They have to do is spread the ideas, keeping it in Consciousness.  They can take it on as a goal, to be proactive in seeing that within Their life time and for the benefit of every Human that comes after.

I sometimes sit aghast that People do not grasp what casting off servitude to the system and in favor of everybody - service to Self and service to Others in singularity - will allow to emerge.  The significance of these two factors, free energy and robots, in Human society so amazingly escapes so many.  So stuck in the scarcity paradigm.

Economists like Jeremy Rifkin can assure Us that all money is is an energy accounting device.  Add free energy and the need for money vanishes.

Quote
Missionaries work to a point. The Jesuits converted a LOT of people over the centuries... (mostly with fear and brute force :P) Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons still send missionaries to my door. But Missionaries don't work very well on free thinkers :D  And this board has a lot of those


[sigh]  The biggest difference between Me and a missionary is that missionaries preach believing in something out of faith.  I say look at communities of rich People - the Hamptons...or Martha's Wine Grape Field.  Replace the servants with robots, and ask Yourself, Gee.  Could We all live like that?  I say, look at the economic fact that money=power over Others=energy.  Look at the state of development the public sector is at in robotics - and imagine what We have in black projects.  I can point to the fact that Humans, in the history We have, have never had either available, openly or occultly, until the last few seconds of that history, these two resources.

So what do Humans in the Hamptons do?  They organize things.  From luncheons to awards shows to birthday parties to...  Gee.  Could We all live like that?  Going out into the world and organizing things:  A tennis tournament, a Magic: the Gathering tournament, a picnic for all the buds that go fishing together, a research team, engineers with inventors to build things.  Projects emerging, with the dedicated and willing behind them, out of the problems on the central web site that need solving.

Gee. Could We all live like that?  Or do We want to put Our energy into the system that lets Them live like that?  If We can all live like that, why is it Our duty to "earn" it?
« Last Edit: November 10, 2012, 07:28:31 PM by Amaterasu »
"If the universe is made of mostly Dark Energy...can We use it to run Our cars?"

"If You want peace, take the profit out of war."

sky otter

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Re: The Ethical Planetarian Platform; Revision 002
« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2012, 09:36:01 PM »

Gee. Could We all live like that?

i don't want to live like that
and i don't want any robots messin in my home or life


i get it but don't like or agree with it ..
 so i won't be keeping it  alive
perhaps there are more like me who have their own ideas

it's nice to have your own idea...isn't it

respectfully not participating in your dream

Offline Shasta56

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Re: The Ethical Planetarian Platform; Revision 002
« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2012, 11:24:35 PM »
I think that robots could have a place in our lives.  I'm quite happy to have a washing machine rather than a washboard, I like having a diswasher, but to replace people in service positions with robots?  No thank you.  I have no desire to live like the people in the Hamptons.  I would be bored out of what's left of my mind.  I do admit that I'm basing my opinion of life in the Hamptons on the television series Revenge, but I've met people who have had everything pretty much given to them.  They don't seem all that happy and fulfilled.  If I'm misinterpreting TAP, I apologize.  I understand that you see it as a wonderful and lofty goal Amy, but a lot of people need to be needed.  If you haven't read The Machine Stops, by E. M. Forster, I think you should.  It provides a good look at a world where every need is met by machines, until the machine stops.  I agree that taking the profit out of war is a good idea.  I don't happen to have a good idea how to make that happen though.  Western civilization is built on war.  The economy is bad and the menfolk are driving the womenfolk buggy?  Have a war!  Get the menfolk out from underfoot for a while.  Personally, I think that's a lousy solution, but historicalky, that's how it's done.

Respectfully,

Shasta



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Offline petrus4

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Re: The Ethical Planetarian Platform; Revision 002
« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2012, 01:25:53 AM »
Gee. Could We all live like that?

i don't want to live like that
and i don't want any robots messin in my home or life

It is important to understand that when most people think of robots, they think of one of two things:-

a}  Cybernetic Revolt, a la the Terminator and the majority of depictions of robots in popular culture.  The word "robot," as originally coined, referred to a humanoid machine, as documented here.

b}  Humanoid/cyborg perversions which are the domain of transhumanists, and which I do not condone.

I advocate the use of robotics, (or perhaps more desirably in order to get away from humanoid connotations) machine automation with the following three restrictions, which I would like to see passed into law as capital crimes, as a means of preventing repeat offense in the only manner which is 100% certain.

a}  The development or construction of humanoid robots is recognised as an unethical, pathological obscenity, which potentially poses severe risks to long term human survival.  I believe that the construction or design of humanoid robots should be an extremely serious crime, and that individuals who attempt to do such research, should be eligible for capital punishment.

b}  The development of devices which involve invasive and/or irremovable cybernetic (machine/human interface) technology should be permanently and universally banned, and any individual found to engage in such research should again be eligible for capital punishment, due to posing an unacceptable degree of risk to the rest of humanity as a species.  In my opinion, rather than being a philosophy, transhumanism is a mental illness, (deriving from an almost completely deluded view of reality; namely, pre-quantum Cartesian materialism) and a potentially lethal one.

c}  Any attempt to develop generalised machine intelligence, whether acorporeal, mechanical, or biological, with the capacity to surpass human intelligence, should, as with the other two, be viewed as a potentially lethal threat to long term human survival, and be dealt with accordingly.

I consider acceptable forms of robots, to be strictly and exclusively non-humanoid machines, which are built for the automation of specific tasks, and do not have the required intelligence to be capable of anything other than said tasks.  I fuily recognise the potential danger of robotics as a branch of science; and while I advocate it within the stated criteria here, I do not advocate it under any other than extremely controlled circumstances.

Given that you use a computer, sky otter, you likely already make use of the majority of forms of machine automation which I would condone, albeit usually in acorporeal (pure software) form.  As a result of the negative connotations described above, I actually prefer to avoid use of the words, "robot," and most especially "android," and instead simply speak of "machines," defined specifically as being non-humanoid, and having non-generalised intelligence which is related exclusively to their specialised tasks.  Car (and many other) manufacturing plants already make use of safe devices, which, strictly speaking, are Computer Numerical Control machines.

These are devices which automate the performance of rote, repetitive tasks which do not require high levels of intelligence, and as such, are generally extremely tedious for humans to perform.  They can also be used to enter hazardous environments such as in the case of the Mars Rover, or the automated submersibles which were sent to the Titanic wreck site or the Sigsbee Deep oceanic zone, which humans may want to explore, but are too dangerous or otherwise impractical for us to do so.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 01:49:24 AM by petrus4 »
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Offline zorgon

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Re: The Ethical Planetarian Platform; Revision 002
« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2012, 04:41:07 AM »
So what do Humans in the Hamptons do?  They organize things.  From luncheons to awards shows to birthday parties to...  Gee.  Could We all live like that?

Hell NO!!! I have been with people like that boring and phony as hell. I couldn't live like that and I think that anyone who thinks they can has RPE (Rich Person Envy} :P

 Going out into the world and organizing things:  A tennis tournament, a Magic: the Gathering tournament, a picnic for all the buds that go fishing together, a research team, engineers with inventors to build things.  Projects emerging, with the dedicated and willing behind them, out of the problems on the central web site that need solving.

Quote
If We can all live like that, why is it Our duty to "earn" it?

Its not that hard to earn it :D  I simply put on a Crown and took a few loyal vassals and we stepped into their world :D  The best thing was, that after hob knobbing with those I got to go home :D

I put a security system into a four story house owned by a Toronto mobster and his wife...  It was like working in a mausoleum. Four stories of museum quality furniture and decoration... but he was out with the boys all day till late at night and she ran her little shop... It was dead I tell ya... got an eerie feeling just being in there. You may think those living in the Hampton's have it good... trust me its not real :D

Offline zorgon

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Re: The Ethical Planetarian Platform; Revision 002
« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2012, 04:48:34 AM »
Given that you use a computer, sky otter, you likely already make use of the majority of forms of machine automation which I would condone,


Ah yes the computer...

You know... BEFORE that evil invention took over our lives people used to actually go OUT and meet each other at a coffee shop, or go to events, or parties...  Now today they are all locked in their caves playing video games, dating via yahoo and wasting their life in endless hours in silly forums

 ::)

Now I suppose it could be argued that 'free energy' might change that... because if I had free gas I would be out at some Medieval War instead of hanging out here :P

Nothing like sitting in my throne in front of a camp fire and watching the slave girls dancing all night  :D

You guys should have all voted for me as King  errmm President :P  I would have fixed things :D

Offline zorgon

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Re: The Ethical Planetarian Platform; Revision 002
« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2012, 04:58:41 AM »
They can also be used to enter hazardous environments such as in the case of the Mars Rover, or the automated submersibles which were sent to the Titanic wreck site or the Sigsbee Deep oceanic zone, which humans may want to explore, but are too dangerous or otherwise impractical for us to do so.

Screw that... send me to Mars :D I could make a fortune on just collecting a handful or two of the Blue Berries. That stupid robot is useless :P

As to deep trenches, why would a robot be allowed to take that Bliss away from someone? Today only the very rich can afford to try that...  So under your system of no money, everyone could do that :D

'To hell and back': James Cameron is first solo diver to reach deepest point on Earth - but has to race back to surface after hydraulic failure seven miles down

what a RUSH :D  There is NO WAY a robot could experience that for us ;)

PLAYSWITHMACHINES

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Re: The Ethical Planetarian Platform; Revision 002
« Reply #44 on: November 11, 2012, 06:02:41 AM »
Sorry i'm late :-[

What a challenge!
There is a way to make it all work, yes it involves politics, we are a political animal.
Busy at the moment, but i would like to reply to every single post later today...
PWM

 


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