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Author Topic: In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia  (Read 13178 times)

Offline zorgon

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In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia
« on: February 24, 2013, 01:05:23 AM »
In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia

Chinchero, near Cusco, Peru


Stairway to nowhere...



The King and Queen's Thrones....



Not built for Hu-mons...



Or... they are just cut out for quarrying...



Starting with the Nazca people, the Paracas that lived BEFORE the Inca, and the famous elongated skulls... This thread will be a little jumbled as i find the material and i will sort it out later. As always, a parallel discussion thread....
« Last Edit: February 24, 2013, 01:55:44 AM by zorgon »

Offline zorgon

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In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2013, 01:30:22 AM »
In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia

Quote
Hi folks , the purpose of this thread is to share my insights and hopefully gain some from more knowing individuals ,my background is 30 years’ experience in the building trade specializing in stone work (chalk, flint and sandstone) but give me a piece of land and I can build you a house from start to finish.

I apologize for any bad grammar or spelling from the offset, as time served on the building site equals less time in the classroom. Please feel free to comment as we take a look around Peru and Bolivia’s ancient sites.

Day 1 was a long eight hour bus ride from Lima down to Nazca, Apparently we passed an observation tower but it was too dark to find, or use.

Day 2
Early start to the Nazca lines, the wind picks up after 11am and you get a rougher ride and if it picks up to much you don’t get to fly, it was also good to hear that their safety record has improved since the last crash.
There are loads of images of the Nazca lines on line, so I won’t bother with my lot , you only get 30 minutes in the air and by the time I had missed my first half dozen I just decided to take it all in rather than watch it through a view finder.

Quote
Next stop Cachucha home to the Nazca.
The dust track to this location is normally accomplished by 4 wheeled drive or 9 seater dune buggy ,not  a coach which was my unfortunate mode of transport ,still good fortune was with us and the driver juggled between going fast to glide over the quick sand and steering madly to avoid tipping over.



The Cachucha is an adobe mud brick complex built between 100AD to 600AD, and unfortunately there’s not much left due to the extensive plundering from the Spanish conquest (1533 AD)and this is still going on to this present day. We had to view this site from a distance as there is still a dig in progress and excess is limited.

On the way back we had our first encounter with the elongated skulls first in a Nazca graveyard and then in a small museum.




Quote
Onto the Ica museum where the largest elongated skulls are kept.
I managed one photo before the curator screamed “no photo’s no photo’s” and proceeded to keep her beady eyes on me, I did manage to sneak some film of the displays but I was disappointed in having to sneak around like some sort of spy on a mission.

These next two images are thanks to Brien Foerster and this is the largest skull on display.





Quote
Why you can’t take photographs is a mystery but when I asked the curator she said the order came from above and her job was on the line. There is also a section screened off from the public with wall to ceiling cases of skulls, the rumour has it that these will be spirited away from the museum and into private collectors hands never to see the light of day.

Film footage was taken from behind the screened of portion by a classic diversion tactic pulled off by two determined photographers. I’ve seen the footage and will share when it becomes available.

Quote
Next stop the museum where we had unprecedented access to photograph ,handle and inspect the elongated skulls.







[youtube]JnERUZNqwbc[/youtube]

In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia



The Enigma of Cranial Deformation: Elongated Skulls of the Ancients
David Hatcher Childress, Brien Foerster
« Last Edit: February 24, 2013, 02:03:55 AM by zorgon »

Offline zorgon

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Re: In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2013, 01:51:12 AM »
Quote
The guidebook tells us that the oldest part of Cusco is built around 1250 AD by the master stonemasons of the Colla ethnic group from the highlands of Lake Titicaca under Manco Capac.
The city was destroyed by civil war, and then the Spanish came along in 1533 and finished the job .
Cusco was then rebuilt using what remained of the older structures, which had two different construction methods.

Convex po- lygonal













Quote
ots of time consuming work and executed quite magnificently.
And then there is Coursed ashlar masonry





Cuzco Peru: Clear Evidence Of The Great Builders Before The Inca

In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia

Cuzco Peru: Clear Evidence Of The Great Builders Before The Inca

[youtube]66x9VLwZaDQ[/youtube]
« Last Edit: February 24, 2013, 02:05:22 AM by zorgon »

Offline zorgon

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Re: In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2013, 02:23:45 AM »
Next onto the Koricancha

Quote
this is said to be the oldest building in cusco built as a royal palace and then turned into a temple , when the Spanish came along they decided to build their church on the top of the Koricancha.









Quote

   
The Spanish church was mainly destroyed during an earthquake of 1950 revealing the original koricancha ,which seems to be hidden from view





Quote
The oldest parts are constructed of green diorite; they used red andesite in the gardens and gray andesite for the compound walls.
the Mohs Hardness of granite is from 5.5 to 7. The darker the granite, the lesser  the quartz, which makes it heavier but less hard.







Quote
how this type of accuracy is achieved using copper chisels and dolorite hammer stones is beyond me.







In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia

Chris Dunn Tour 2012: Lost Ancient Technologies Of Peru And Bolivia

[youtube]g_UAfMWqjDY[/youtube]

[youtube]SDE9WahkFIM[/youtube]
« Last Edit: February 24, 2013, 02:31:04 AM by zorgon »

Offline zorgon

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Re: In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2013, 03:11:09 AM »


Quote
How this drill hole is achieved using tools unknown at the present is a hot topic of debate.





SOURCE

looking at that light reflection on the wall of the hole, it looks like it's glazed.

Day 6 Sachsayhuaman

Quote
The guidebook tells us that it was built from limestone in 1460 by 30,000 to 50,000 men taking 50 years using hammers of bronze and very hard stone (hematite and quartzite) and were polished using granite sand, plenty of water, clay and plants until their forms and edges fit exactly with the copies or clay molds that had been taken from the blocks that were just above and below them. They calculate that 15 men can haul a ton block up an incline at altitude 10,000 feet above sea level, and some of these blocks are estimated to weigh over a 100 tons.

The guidebooks also inform us that Sachsayhuaman  was taken apart by the conquistadors and used to build the cathedral in Cusco and other Spanish churches in the area from 1537.















Quote
This is the 2nd level and it shows that the natural hill was excavated to form terraces with the blocks laid to form a facade, the stones exposed at this section are worked sufficiently to create a neat joint but the back has just been crudely hacked away.
As is apparent in the photo the wall is backed up with an inside layer with a clay infill in-between.

In my view the guidebooks which I have four, all seem to take their information from the conquistadors who re wrote the Inca history after conquering the Inca people and all of them provide no explanation or any clue as to how this place was built.
Same old thing, history is always written by the victors, other stories have suggested that the Inca actually inherited this site and others and they were built by giants. Others have suggested that the blocks were somehow softened using a plant extract or a lemon/vinegar type acid ,maybe a sample can be extracted from inside the channel I photographed to clear this issue one way or another.

One thing is for sure this is a monumental structure built by real experts in stonework ,not as precise as the koricancha but working with this size of blocks puts it on another level. a proper mystery to be sure.

In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia
« Last Edit: February 24, 2013, 03:13:44 AM by zorgon »

Offline zorgon

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Re: In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2013, 03:14:06 AM »
The Inca's and the Wheel

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I'm trying to put together some of the most informative images of the trip and as i'm progressing through the sites i am learning more and more , take for instance the notion that the Inca wasn't aware of the wheel , well here's a image from Tiwanaku, outside the museum



Quote
and this one is just propped up against a wall in the Tiwanaku complex , it has a key stone cut ,so it might have started life as something else before being re cycled into a wheel, also the center hasn't been drilled all the way through, and you can just make out a raised portion going through the center.



Quote
whether these wheels/millstones are of Tiwanaku origin or from a later date , your guess is as good as mine.

this next image is from the quarry at ollaytatambo , i wasn't able to see this for myself , but what a wheel is doing half way up a mountain in a Inca quarry is indeed a puzzle , my guess would be that it was used to sharpen the quarry men's chisels ,but why the need for it to be so big is another question , i could be way off and it may not be Inca at all but Spanish .........again your guess is as good as mine.



Quote
here is a link to pre columbian wheels , so the concept of the wheel was known.

http://www.precolumbianwheels.com/

these wheels are a mystery , Icant see them being used for transporting stone because the terrain is unsuitable , my hunch would be that their grinding stones and could have quite possibly been powered by a water mechanism .

In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia
« Last Edit: February 24, 2013, 03:19:18 AM by zorgon »

Offline Somamech

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Re: In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2013, 12:01:14 PM »
Somehow I think ya just proved that there was at least minimum three civil bobs in that area over varying times  ;D


Offline zorgon

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Re: In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2013, 07:15:33 PM »
Brien Foerster

Photo taken today of me and a 50 pound Elongated crystal skull...Pisaq Peru...




Offline zorgon

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Re: In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2013, 07:19:43 PM »
La Tolita Lying figure



Quote
Beige terracotta finely made ceramic of a female figure lying on her stomach, presumably in prayer, arms outstretched, an offering in the right hand and torso upright. The almond shaped head with ritually deformed skull shows very gracious features and nice decorative details (cap, necklace…). Yellow ochre pigment on the face.
Production of the La Tolita culture, tropical forest coast in Esmeraldas, the northern Ecuadorian province. In connection with the Tumaco culture of south Colombia. Specialists suggest strong affinities with Mesoamerican styles
Ecuador, Esmeraldas province, La Tolita, 500 BC – 500 AD

One hand missing, arm reglued.





La Tolita Lying figure
« Last Edit: February 24, 2013, 07:40:34 PM by zorgon »

Offline zorgon

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Re: In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2013, 08:03:41 PM »
Brien Foerster

Not Peru, this is Alacohoyuk in Turkey...



More coming....

Offline zorgon

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Re: In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2013, 08:27:23 PM »
More Elongated Heads



Although this does look a tad like a space suit. Wikipedia says it's a Mayan Ball Player outfit. :D



However the other images show the ball outfit as a skimpy sarong


Small detail of a reproduction of a mural at the Tepantitla complex of Teotihuacan. Cropped and enhanced from a photo by Daquella manera


A ceramic female with ballplayer dress. Xochipala, 1000 - 800 BCE. Height: approximately 7 inches.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_ballgame

So space suit or ball outfit... YOU decide :P  but it still has that elongated skull



'Alien' skulls excavated in Mexico deliberately warped, scientists say


Although cranial deformation and dental mutilation were common features among the pre-Hispanic populations of Mesoamerica and western Mexico, but scientists had not previously seen either in Sonora or the American Southwest. (Cristina García / INAH.) Alien-like look. It is common for people to wonder if skeletons such as these are alien rather than human.

Quote
Human skulls deliberately warped into strange, alien-like shapes have been unearthed in a 1,000-year-old cemetery in Mexico, researchers say.

The practice of deforming skulls of children as they grew was common in Central America, and these findings suggest the tradition spread farther north than had been thought, scientists added.

The cemetery was discovered by residents of the small Mexican village of Onavas in 1999 as they were building an irrigation canal. It is the first pre-Hispanic cemetery found in the northern Mexican state of Sonora.

The site, referred to as El Cementerio, contained the remains of 25 human burials. Thirteen of them had deformed skulls, which were elongate and pointy at the back, and five had mutilated teeth

FOX NEWS via Live Science Article

Only problem is (other than this is Fox News :P) it doesn't account for the fact that the Paracas skulls have only TWO bones not three. It is likely the skull deformation was done after because they wanted to look like their Gods

This one looks like one of the deformed ones..


Nazca SkullCredit: Didier Descouens, Creative Commons A deformed skull dating to between 200 B.C. and 100 B.C. and belonging to an individual of the Nazca culture, which flourished along the Peruvian coast.

And yet the same burial site has MOST of the skeletons showing normal skulls....



Comment from Live Science Link:

Bill Loika  · University of Antarctica

Quote
In Paracas (Peru) and perhaps elsewhere, these skulls have been found with only 2 plates (front and rear) unlike normal homo sapiens skulls with a frontal plate and L & R parietal plates. They also have two foramen in the back, something we don't have, and their dental structure is different.These were the people that humans all over the world have been mimicking using headbinding of babies to make them look like this elite race. Aliens? Maybe a now extinct branch of the human race? Were these the Annunaki? No one can answer that at the present time, so all the sarcastic cynical know it alls who comment should get their facts straight. Another point of interest, a mummified pregnant woman with an elongated skull was found in Peru and the fetus mummified inside her had a head like this! There is more going on here than the " There's no mysteries , we know it all " apologists for mainstream academia care to know. A good book to find out more info on this is "The enigma of Cranial deformation" published by Adventures Unlimited Press.


North MexicoCredit: Cristina García / INAH.The first evidence of deforming skulls was found in the northern Mexican state of Sonora when residents were digging an irrigation canal in 1999.

http://www.livescience.com/25734-alien-skull-binding-mexico.html
« Last Edit: February 24, 2013, 08:50:03 PM by zorgon »

Offline zorgon

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Re: In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2013, 09:06:48 PM »
A closeup of the stone wall in Imperial Palace, Tokyo, Japan.



Brien Foerster

These look like Inca walls, but they are in fact in Japan; the royal palace of the emperor, who, like the Inca, is a Child Of The Sun.



14000 years old Yonaguni Island in Japan










Not so sure about this one "14000 years old Yonaguni island in Japan"

Offline zorgon

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Re: In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2013, 09:10:24 PM »










Many more pictures of Yonaguni, but I added it here to compare the construction to that of Peru

Offline zorgon

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Re: In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2013, 09:31:49 PM »
Sachsayhuaman, Cusco, Peru

Now compare these rock cuttings and steps to those of Yonaguni. The same large uneven steps, the same apparently random patterns, but the same style










Killke culture

Quote
The Killke occupied the region from 900 to 1200, prior to the arrival of the Incas in the 13th century. Carbon-14 dating of Sachsayhuaman, the walled complex outside Cusco, has demonstrated that the Killke culture constructed the fortress about 1100. The Inca later expanded and occupied the complex in the 13th century and after. On 13 March 2008, archaeologists discovered the ruins of an ancient temple, roadway and aqueduct system at Sachsayhuaman. This find plus the results of excavations in 2007, when another temple was found at the edge of the fortress, indicates religious as well as military use of the facility.

http://www.cusco.eu/view/killke-culture-of-cusco.html

And the lead archaeologist Oscar Rodriguez had this to say.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23626...d-near-inca-capital/#.UMoDV3eQT0Q

On the 20th December 2012 a Killke structure is reported to have been discovered but as you can see in the link the structure is pretty basic.

http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=345371&CategoryId=14095

Just because they have a c 14 date of 1100 AD for people residing at Sachsayhuaman it doesn’t necessarily mean that it was constructed at that time or by them, so the search continues.

When you go to Sachsayhuaman you always picture the fortress/temple or ceremonial centre (delete where necessary) but on the other side is a place called Rodadero (sliding place) which is a fascinating place.















In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia


Offline zorgon

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Re: In Search of the Ancient Builders in Peru and Bolivia
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2013, 09:47:22 PM »
Vilcabamba Nusta Hispana, Peru

Again, compare these to Yonagumi...







[youtube]akg1DTUYIGc[/youtube]

 


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