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Author Topic: An Open Letter to the Revolutionaries  (Read 13454 times)

Offline zorgon

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Re: An Open Letter to the Revolutionaries
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2013, 01:38:19 AM »
z, the reason past utopias failed is because they did not have three things We have just now in the Human history We know of.

Perhaps in your knowledge. But in my world ours is the FIFTH civilization and Atlantis (the 4th.. not merely a lost island) had free energy. The Greeks had robots.. called automatrons... knowledge left over from the 4th civilization.

Atomic war (or at least high energy weapons) has wiped out mankind before. The places we call deserts today... the Sahara... the Gobi... theses were once lush lands of Abundance... the proof is in the tektites and desert glass found in most of our most desolate spots... glass from vitrification of annihilated cities.. some in India still have above normal radiation... and the same tektites and desert glass are found at the Nevada test site

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Humans like to PLAY at war.  And like I have said, there is likely to be a LOT of THAT. 

Well that is what happened to the last four civilizations (BTW one was of Giants...  I think the second)  So if the wars are big enough and long enough they will wipe out 80% of humanity... That would then leave plenty for the survivors.  How long after all those wars you speak of will your utopia come to pass?  First people will just need to survive the next day... its going to be a very long time.

How about we skip the total nuclear annihilation thing this time :P

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But aside from that the tensions inherent in scarcity are what causes the emergence of greed, envy, motive to defraud, motive to hide advances (i.e., cures), and other behaviors that will lose motives when abundance flows and money is not needed.

Not true in all cases. Take Helen of Troy for example...  there you have two kingdoms that were rich and powerful... Those guys could have had any woman they wanted... but they both wanted ONE woman... and your Abundance Paradign cannot fix that desire... and because of THAT desire, all the greed hatred and envy came to a head to a point that nearly wiped out both kingdoms.

And that was only 2 men coveting 1 woman. It wasn't about money. it wasn't about land, it was about love (well sorta :P  more like LUST)

The point is all it takes is ONE situation like that triggered by ONE individual that NO ONE was able to stop. History is full of them... there will always be another one
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 01:43:38 AM by zorgon »

Offline Eighthman

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Re: An Open Letter to the Revolutionaries
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2013, 06:27:51 AM »
Somebody at Zen Gardner pointed out that, if you get Israel and North Korea out of the way,  you've pretty much got world peace between nations (Syria and such are civil wars).

As to robots and free energy, we've still got a long ways to go, unfortunately.

Offline Sgt.Rocknroll

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Re: An Open Letter to the Revolutionaries
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2013, 06:38:05 AM »
My take on all of this. Why is there someone out there that thinks THEY know how to live YOUR life? They instinctively know that what you're doing is wrong. They see a problem and  viola! they know a better way. They know the reasons you act the way you do. And that can't be good. Look at all the problems; They know how to fix things! Mankind does not change, at least the basic instinct part. There will always be wars, famine, pestilence, no matter how 'evolved' we become. There will always be problems and wait...there will always be someone who knows best!

Leave me the hell alone!... ;)

Rock

P.S. Damn I open my mouth again on a subject that I know nothing about...oops :P
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Offline 1Worldwatcher

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Re: An Open Letter to the Revolutionaries
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2013, 07:24:53 AM »
Rock
P.S. Damn I open my mouth again on a subject that I know nothing about...oops :P

And I detected some Sarcasm there as well!!! :P LOL Ha ha ha!!!! "Get'em Sgt.!!" Ha ha ha!!

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Offline Amaterasu

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Re: An Open Letter to the Revolutionaries
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2013, 08:52:37 AM »
Perhaps in your knowledge. But in my world ours is the FIFTH civilization and Atlantis (the 4th.. not merely a lost island) had free energy. The Greeks had robots.. called automatrons... knowledge left over from the 4th civilization.

Ah, I suggest that at none of those times was there a paradigm shift - and that the "free energy" was still in control of the few.  The whole hierarchical scheme was never broken.

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How about we skip the total nuclear annihilation thing this time :P

That is My goal.   The revolution (I aim for) will be in ideas and not blood.

Quote
Not true in all cases. Take Helen of Troy for example...  there you have two kingdoms that were rich and powerful... Those guys could have had any woman they wanted... but they both wanted ONE woman... and your Abundance Paradign cannot fix that desire... and because of THAT desire, all the greed hatred and envy came to a head to a point that nearly wiped out both kingdoms.

Again I will say:  NO, it will not solve interpersonal relationships.  YES, Humans will desire One anOther.  There will be conflicts - but the Helen of Troy thing will not be possible for the following reasons:

1.  The guys would be no more or less powerful than any other Human around.
2.  Helen would have a say.

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The point is all it takes is ONE situation like that triggered by ONE individual that NO ONE was able to stop. History is full of them... there will always be another one

In scarcity where One can build armies by paying enough to hold Them...  Sure.  When there is nothing but charisma to hold armies...One had better have a good plan, eh?



My take on all of this. Why is there someone out there that thinks THEY know how to live YOUR life? They instinctively know that what you're doing is wrong. They see a problem and  viola! they know a better way. They know the reasons you act the way you do. And that can't be good. Look at all the problems; They know how to fix things! Mankind does not change, at least the basic instinct part. There will always be wars, famine, pestilence, no matter how 'evolved' we become. There will always be problems and wait...there will always be someone who knows best!

Leave me the hell alone!... ;)

Rock

P.S. Damn I open my mouth again on a subject that I know nothing about...oops :P

If You examine My work...  You will find that nowhere do I suggest ways to live One's life.  I set up a framework in which each of Us may do exactly as We please - provided it does not involve hurting Others.  From living in a cave or on the steppes of Mongolia to having a palace on land or in the air, from living like the Amish to living as a hedonist.  From spending time surfing to studying medicine.  Whatever You WANT to do.  And I will surely leave You alone as long as You are not deliberately hurting People, killing People, taking or damaging Others' property, or defrauding.

So...  Sure, problems will crop up - and leaders with the BEST solutions will emerge - rather than electing leaders to find the cheapest or most profitable (for some) way to solve them.

But I say You are wrong relative to the war - if there is no profit in it...why would We war?  Famine is also very solvable when planetary distribution is available (for free), and so too will be pestilence.

Have You read the work at the links in the OP?
"If the universe is made of mostly Dark Energy...can We use it to run Our cars?"

"If You want peace, take the profit out of war."

Offline Anynonmouses

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Re: An Open Letter to the Revolutionaries
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2013, 09:01:16 AM »
We are in the first of three paradigms theoretically existing between pain and plenty. We're still in pain mode, where the elite rule us, we are servants of the system and are limited in every way imaginable.

Next we move to a transition between pain and what I call the free mode...which is a little ways off yet. In this transition from pain to freedom we are seizing back control of our government, as well as our individual selves. In paradigm two we are sovereign individuals unfettered by borders or limits except one--DO NO HARM, the universal law. Transition implies we are currently engaged in defeating our limitations and control itself, freeing us to imagine, invent and plan for better tomorrows. Once we've gotten control of ourselves, paradigm two looks great!

Paradigm two will be the impetus for a transition into paradigm three, a situation in which we have no need of money, energy is everywhere and free to use, robots do all tasks people would rather not do and we are riding around in electrogravitic vehicles with the ultimate in crash avoidance technology. We'll have urges to visit friends on other planets and show up hours later for lunch.

It is useful (for me anyway) to stay focused in the current paradigm with my eye on the prize--paradigm three. Jumping the gun in conversation can lead to misunderstandings. If I'm a paradigm three thinker but am still working out the bugs and frustrations of transitioning to paradigm two, or talking about robots doing the tedious work etcetera I seem like a dreamer, and I am, but those who don't dream as fast as me are left wondering how much of that stuff I smoked!

I want to see people becoming excited about the prospect of becoming galactic beings with only one universal law in the pocket, and I want to help get there any way I can, because I can smell it--paradigm two is close, and paradigm three will happen at light speed compared with how long it took to get from paradigm one to paradigm two.

Ammy (I call her that because it's short for AMULET, like an ammy of strength, etcetera AND it's an excuse to inject another "m" into the mix just to be silly)...your quest to advance the possibilities you describe are laudable, crucial, and I'm on your side--AT your side literally. I get it because we discuss these things almost constantly (to my delight), which in itself brings into being a space for such things to happen.

Free energy is the first step. Next we topple the government and any other control freak who attempts to grow a brain, then we control our own destiny free of debt or the need for money, then we build robots to replicate themselves, electrogravitic craft, free energy devices, homes and the rest of it, THEN we party like the inventive rock stars we know we are, and travel the universe. All aboard!

We can't fail. We're not here for that!

Peace and Love,
JD
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 09:05:39 AM by Anynonmouses »
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Re: An Open Letter to the Revolutionaries
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2013, 11:32:21 AM »
We are in the first of three paradigms theoretically existing between pain and plenty. We're still in pain mode, where the elite rule us, we are servants of the system and are limited in every way imaginable.

Next we move to a transition between pain and what I call the free mode...which is a little ways off yet. In this transition from pain to freedom we are seizing back control of our government, as well as our individual selves. In paradigm two we are sovereign individuals unfettered by borders or limits except one--DO NO HARM, the universal law. Transition implies we are currently engaged in defeating our limitations and control itself, freeing us to imagine, invent and plan for better tomorrows. Once we've gotten control of ourselves, paradigm two looks great!

Paradigm two will be the impetus for a transition into paradigm three, a situation in which we have no need of money, energy is everywhere and free to use, robots do all tasks people would rather not do and we are riding around in electrogravitic vehicles with the ultimate in crash avoidance technology. We'll have urges to visit friends on other planets and show up hours later for lunch.

It is useful (for me anyway) to stay focused in the current paradigm with my eye on the prize--paradigm three. Jumping the gun in conversation can lead to misunderstandings. If I'm a paradigm three thinker but am still working out the bugs and frustrations of transitioning to paradigm two, or talking about robots doing the tedious work etcetera I seem like a dreamer, and I am, but those who don't dream as fast as me are left wondering how much of that stuff I smoked!

I want to see people becoming excited about the prospect of becoming galactic beings with only one universal law in the pocket, and I want to help get there any way I can, because I can smell it--paradigm two is close, and paradigm three will happen at light speed compared with how long it took to get from paradigm one to paradigm two.

Ammy (I call her that because it's short for AMULET, like an ammy of strength, etcetera AND it's an excuse to inject another "m" into the mix just to be silly)...your quest to advance the possibilities you describe are laudable, crucial, and I'm on your side--AT your side literally. I get it because we discuss these things almost constantly (to my delight), which in itself brings into being a space for such things to happen.

Free energy is the first step. Next we topple the government and any other control freak who attempts to grow a brain, then we control our own destiny free of debt or the need for money, then we build robots to replicate themselves, electrogravitic craft, free energy devices, homes and the rest of it, THEN we party like the inventive rock stars we know we are, and travel the universe. All aboard!

We can't fail. We're not here for that!

Peace and Love,
JD


You have it spot on.  And you lay it out nicely for those who do get it and now they understand(like myself) that it is important to keep the eye on the prize while still working through the situation you are in to get to where we are going.


Edward

Offline zorgon

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Re: An Open Letter to the Revolutionaries
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2013, 01:36:29 PM »
Ah, I suggest that at none of those times was there a paradigm shift - and that the "free energy" was still in control of the few.  The whole hierarchical scheme was never broken.

You 'suggest'   based on what evidence?

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That is My goal.   The revolution (I aim for) will be in ideas and not blood.

Noble cause... :D But humans will be humans :P

Quote
Again I will say:  NO, it will not solve interpersonal relationships.  YES, Humans will desire One anOther.  There will be conflicts - but the Helen of Troy thing will not be possible for the following reasons:

1.  The guys would be no more or less powerful than any other Human around.
2.  Helen would have a say.

Well 1) that would require all humans being genetically modified to be the SAME (as Hitler tried to do :P ) because ThIS..



will never have the same power as THIS



and 2) Helen did have a say in it... Women playing men against each other is an age old theme... and that will only get worse if they have a lot of free time on their hands to pursue their bliss.  We call them Black Widows for a reason :D

Quote
In scarcity where One can build armies by paying enough to hold Them...  Sure.  When there is nothing but charisma to hold armies...One had better have a good plan, eh?

Your wrong...  I am not a King by blood.. I created my own Kingdom. There are many such Kingdoms around and each King has his own loyal followers. I do not pay my army... they follow me because they like what I offer. They swear allegiance (fealty) to me because they WANT to.  When we go to war, sure it is technically a play war... but it is real enough and if the need arose most of these people would take it to the next level. In fact there is a song about that very thing.

These people follow the Laws of Vassalage.  The one thing your TAP equation ignores is that humans inherently want a leader. The vast majority of the human race is more comfortable following a good leader than being out on their own

The Anonymous movement and the Occupy movements are PROOF of that... both are merely a new shepherd with a new, latest fad idea to follow.  We are already seeing corruption appear in the Anon movement because anyone can don that mask and do evil in the name of the movement. It too shall fall as people get bored.

These are a few of the Eleven Kings present at Court 2002...  you have no idea of the power and the sincerity at such events unless you experience it.



Such Kingdoms number membership in the thousands all around the world. Why so many? because people seek the good old days when small leaders took care of their own.

Cults use the same principle. A charismatic person decides on a goal... finds others that like his direction... and soon they will follow him literally to the death.

This has nothing to do with money or scarcity... it is the nature of the beast


Quote
If You examine My work...  You will find that nowhere do I suggest ways to live One's life.  I set up a framework in which each of Us may do exactly as We please - provided it does not involve hurting Others.  From living in a cave or on the steppes of Mongolia to having a palace on land or in the air, from living like the Amish to living as a hedonist.  From spending time surfing to studying medicine.  Whatever You WANT to do.

Back in the 70's the Hippies preached "Do your own thing"  At the time I was 6ft 2in had a brush cut, had a PI license and wore a tan trench coat...  Had some friends in that Hippy movement who kept telling me I needed to mellow out and smoke pot and try that LSD and that I needed to stop 'being the man' and do my own thing.  Well I WAS doing my own thing... but since it was not there ideal of /my own thing' I was wrong :P

My Chinese friend once took me to the after hours club where the Chinese workers hang out. We walked in and the place went silent... the Ma Jong tables suddenly cleared... until my friend said I was okay LOL  After that it was great :D

People that think doing anything you want has to be what they THINK you should want. This has happened over and over. And they get mad when you say "No I don't want to do what you want... thanks anyway"  And when they get mad enough that you won't listen to their solution... that leads to war

Aleister Crowley a rogue Rosicrucian used the Law of Thelema "Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law"... but that was distorted from the original Wiccan Rede "And it harm none, do as though wilt."

So his bliss was not exactly compatible with the rest of the Occult world. (Oddly enough when people today who are not initiated speak... it is Crowley that is most remembered :Pc )

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And I will surely leave You alone as long as You are not deliberately hurting People, killing People, taking or damaging Others' property, or defrauding.

Good to hear :D But We will defend what is ours... be that family or ferret, home or country... or Empire :D

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So...  Sure, problems will crop up - and leaders with the BEST solutions will emerge - rather than electing leaders to find the cheapest or most profitable (for some) way to solve them.

The leaders with the BEST solutions generally get assasinated like Lincoln who abolished slavery in this country and Kennedy who wanted to take down the banks and give us free access to space.  It is always the WORST leaders that seem to mess things up and they are supported by the easily swayed masses.  Hitler gave starving Germans a peoples car, a speed limitless hwy and someone to blame their woes on and that was all it took.  Alexander the Great was made a HERO... they today we find out that purely out of spite and greed he wiped out a Utopian civilization that had gotten so soft with Abundance that they no longer knew how to fight for their way of life

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But I say You are wrong relative to the war - if there is no profit in it...why would We war?  Famine is also very solvable when planetary distribution is available (for free), and so too will be pestilence.

The Profit in war comes along after the war starts because greedy people take advantage of a situation... and today... sure some powers rattle sabers because they know there is a buck to be made.

I had a friend in Toronto who was Croatian. At the time it was called Yugoslavia. Now he was the nicest guy, calm pleasnat never hurt a fly... taught me the gem business. One day a dealer came into the shop and simply said during conversation "Oh so your from Yugoslavia..."  Well my friend exploded ... "I am from Croatia... don't you forget it..." He had turned red... but quickly caught himself and apologized. 

Like the Hatfields and McCoys the fight between Bosnia Srbia and Craotia was a long running family blood feud.  Word War 1 was started directly over this issue, not money. In fact the money powers had fought hard to prevent the war.  "On 28 June 1914, Gavrilo Princip, a Bosnian Serb student and member of Young Bosnia, assassinated the heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne, Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria in Sarajevo, Bosnia."

Then everyone took sides and it quickly escalated out of control around the world

The Hatfields and McCoys... family hate feud
The Trojan war was not over money  it was over a woman...
The Civil War was not about money... it was one side trying to free slaves (and was a success on that score)

I could go on... but most wars are started over petty things... someone feels wronged by another, and everyone else gets sucked into the fray.

Then once it starts your money grubbers see the opportunity to sell arms, plunder riches and then sell rebuilding. Having unlimited cash food etc will be nice, but it won't remove the thing that most drives people to fight... a pure hatred of the other guy

The extremist Muslims HATE our freedom (even such as it is now) and are determined to wipe us out and fall under their way of looking at things

That Korean buffoon has the same goal and whether or not it will come to much, a lot of people (his mostly) are going to suffer

Communism tried to make everyone equal... it failed too because inevitably the wrong people rise to the top.

Your dream is worthy, but humans have a long way to go on the evolutionary scale before we can see such a change that is both global and long lasting....

And that is provide we even survive the next coming ice age :P


Offline Sgt.Rocknroll

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Re: An Open Letter to the Revolutionaries
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2013, 02:10:10 PM »
Ah, I suggest that at none of those times was there a paradigm shift - and that the "free energy" was still in control of the few.  The whole hierarchical scheme was never broken.

That is My goal.   The revolution (I aim for) will be in ideas and not blood.

Again I will say:  NO, it will not solve interpersonal relationships.  YES, Humans will desire One anOther.  There will be conflicts - but the Helen of Troy thing will not be possible for the following reasons:

1.  The guys would be no more or less powerful than any other Human around.
2.  Helen would have a say.

In scarcity where One can build armies by paying enough to hold Them...  Sure.  When there is nothing but charisma to hold armies...One had better have a good plan, eh?



If You examine My work...  You will find that nowhere do I suggest ways to live One's life.  I set up a framework in which each of Us may do exactly as We please - provided it does not involve hurting Others.  From living in a cave or on the steppes of Mongolia to having a palace on land or in the air, from living like the Amish to living as a hedonist.  From spending time surfing to studying medicine.  Whatever You WANT to do.  And I will surely leave You alone as long as You are not deliberately hurting People, killing People, taking or damaging Others' property, or defrauding.

So...  Sure, problems will crop up - and leaders with the BEST solutions will emerge - rather than electing leaders to find the cheapest or most profitable (for some) way to solve them.

But I say You are wrong relative to the war - if there is no profit in it...why would We war?  Famine is also very solvable when planetary distribution is available (for free), and so too will be pestilence.

Profit is not the only reason for War, Power is the only thing that drives some people. Human nature is what it is. And I say it will never change.

Have You read the work at the links in the OP?
Non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed nomini Tuo da gloriam

Offline Amaterasu

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Re: An Open Letter to the Revolutionaries
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2013, 11:10:29 PM »
You 'suggest'   based on what evidence?

That We still have problems; a money system, a hierarchy.

Quote
Noble cause... :D But humans will be humans :P

Not sure what You mean by that.  Get the ideas to the tipping point, and We WILL create a better system.

Quote
Well 1) that would require all humans being genetically modified to be the SAME (as Hitler tried to do :P ) because ThIS..



will never have the same power as THIS


Darlin', You're missing the point.  The men in the "myth" had ARMIES.  Sure two men alone might have One beat the Other - but NOT vast mayhem, death and destruction.

Quote
and 2) Helen did have a say in it... Women playing men against each other is an age old theme... and that will only get worse if they have a lot of free time on their hands to pursue their bliss.  We call them Black Widows for a reason :D

Yeah, but it will not be between any but a few men.  NOT vast mayhem, death and destruction.

Quote
Your wrong...  I am not a King by blood.. I created my own Kingdom. There are many such Kingdoms around and each King has his own loyal followers. I do not pay my army... they follow me because they like what I offer. They swear allegiance (fealty) to me because they WANT to.  When we go to war, sure it is technically a play war... but it is real enough and if the need arose most of these people would take it to the next level. In fact there is a song about that very thing.

[sigh]  There You go trying to pretend fun and games = vast mayhem, death and destruction.  How many of those "loyal" to You would actually enter battle wherein They are rather likely to die?

Quote
These people follow the Laws of Vassalage.  The one thing your TAP equation ignores is that humans inherently want a leader. The vast majority of the human race is more comfortable following a good leader than being out on their own

Again, I will go over this with You.  It absolutely does NOT ignore that humans inherently want a leader - and in fact, this is NOT an inherent aspect of Humans.  SOME want leaders, SOME want autonomy, SOME want to lead.  Many don't want leaders except where things are uncertain and Others seem to have a better handle. 

Be that all as it may, leaders (and followers) will emerge for each project undertaken.  And many will go into fantasy land and pretend some Joe (or Ron) is "king."  Or other such playtime fantasy.

Quote
The Anonymous movement and the Occupy movements are PROOF of that... both are merely a new shepherd with a new, latest fad idea to follow.  We are already seeing corruption appear in the Anon movement because anyone can don that mask and do evil in the name of the movement. It too shall fall as people get bored.

Occupy was engineered and BS.  Anonymous is infiltrated and amorphous.  They prove nothing.

Quote
These are a few of the Eleven Kings present at Court 2002...  you have no idea of the power and the sincerity at such events unless you experience it.

Yeah.  So?  How many of Their "vassals" are actually killing One anOther?  Or...  Is this make-believe, too?

Quote
Such Kingdoms number membership in the thousands all around the world. Why so many? because people seek the good old days when small leaders took care of their own.

And/or just love to escape the real world into fantasy.

Quote
Cults use the same principle. A charismatic person decides on a goal... finds others that like his direction... and soon they will follow him literally to the death.

Oh, certainly.  BUT...  If any such cults break the three Laws - the rest of Us will mete justice.  Otherwise... Who the funk cares?

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This has nothing to do with money or scarcity... it is the nature of the beast

Yeah, but - without money/profit as motive, vast mayhem, death and destruction will not take place.   I do not aim to end Some following Others - just remove the impetus to follow Others into vast mayhem, death and destruction.


Quote
Back in the 70's the Hippies preached "Do your own thing"  At the time I was 6ft 2in had a brush cut, had a PI license and wore a tan trench coat...  Had some friends in that Hippy movement who kept telling me I needed to mellow out and smoke pot and try that LSD and that I needed to stop 'being the man' and do my own thing.  Well I WAS doing my own thing... but since it was not there ideal of /my own thing' I was wrong :P

My Chinese friend once took me to the after hours club where the Chinese workers hang out. We walked in and the place went silent... the Ma Jong tables suddenly cleared... until my friend said I was okay LOL  After that it was great :D

People that think doing anything you want has to be what they THINK you should want. This has happened over and over. And they get mad when you say "No I don't want to do what you want... thanks anyway"  And when they get mad enough that you won't listen to their solution... that leads to war

The nice thing in abundance is that You will be able to go be with Those who LIKE who You are.  You are not stuck with bosses, co-workers, and subordinates You don't get along with.  So...  You do Your own thing and if Others don't like it...find Those who do.

Quote
Aleister Crowley a rogue Rosicrucian used the Law of Thelema "Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law"... but that was distorted from the original Wiccan Rede "And it harm none, do as though wilt."

So his bliss was not exactly compatible with the rest of the Occult world. (Oddly enough when people today who are not initiated speak... it is Crowley that is most remembered :Pc )

As an initiate of Wicca, I have always preferred the Wiccan Rede.  Aleister would do just fine in abundance - unless what HE wanted to do was hurt Others.  As long as the three Laws are kept...

Quote
Good to hear :D But We will defend what is ours... be that family or ferret, home or country... or Empire :D

I'm all over that for family, ferret, or home.  Your right, indeed.  Country in abundance will become mostly meaningless - and Empire?  Heh.  Maybe a fantasy empire...

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The leaders with the BEST solutions generally get assasinated like Lincoln who abolished slavery in this country and Kennedy who wanted to take down the banks and give us free access to space.  It is always the WORST leaders that seem to mess things up and they are supported by the easily swayed masses.  Hitler gave starving Germans a peoples car, a speed limitless hwy and someone to blame their woes on and that was all it took.  Alexander the Great was made a HERO... they today we find out that purely out of spite and greed he wiped out a Utopian civilization that had gotten so soft with Abundance that they no longer knew how to fight for their way of life

You're not seeing things clearly here...  Lincoln was assassinated because He issued the greenbacks, Kennedy because He tried to mess with the Fed.  The BEST will NOT be killed when there is no money/power reason to do so.  The WORST get in because of money/power.  The worst get elected for the same reasons.

As for fighting...  Who would Humanity fight?  ET?  If so, I don't think it would matter how "soft" We got.

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The Profit in war comes along after the war starts because greedy people take advantage of a situation... and today... sure some powers rattle sabers because they know there is a buck to be made.

Ah, geez, z.  The MOTIVE to profit starts it all.  The false flags and propaganda and infiltration then begin, with the aim to incite to war.  Then the war starts and the suppliers jump in and feed both sides if They can.  Then the "infrastructure rebuilders come through, all profiting from what They started in the first place.

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I had a friend in Toronto who was Croatian. At the time it was called Yugoslavia. Now he was the nicest guy, calm pleasnat never hurt a fly... taught me the gem business. One day a dealer came into the shop and simply said during conversation "Oh so your from Yugoslavia..."  Well my friend exploded ... "I am from Croatia... don't you forget it..." He had turned red... but quickly caught himself and apologized. 

Like the Hatfields and McCoys the fight between Bosnia Srbia and Craotia was a long running family blood feud.  Word War 1 was started directly over this issue, not money. In fact the money powers had fought hard to prevent the war.  "On 28 June 1914, Gavrilo Princip, a Bosnian Serb student and member of Young Bosnia, assassinated the heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne, Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria in Sarajevo, Bosnia."

Then everyone took sides and it quickly escalated out of control around the world

And could that not have been a calculated effort to start a war?  I might think of it in that situation.  And sure, many are opposed to war - Humans ARE NOT WARLIKE naturally.  Naturally, They defend and protect.  It takes money/power or a psyop/propaganda to incite to war. 

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The Hatfields and McCoys... family hate feud

Yeah.  One set of families.  In confined area.  Without much chance of picking up and leaving.  Very different from abundance where We all may move elsewhere as easily as We order dinner at a restaurant.

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The Trojan war was not over money  it was over a woman...

Really, it was more power wielded by the woman...

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The Civil War was not about money... it was one side trying to free slaves (and was a success on that score)

Wrong.  The slave issue was a side issue but made a good story for the history books.  Lincoln was printing greenbacks, the North was resource-poor and the South resource-rich, and the idea was to help the North on Southern backs.  The North knew that without the South's riches, it would implode.  THOSE were the REAL reasons for the war.  In abundance, all that is moot.

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I could go on... but most wars are started over petty things... someone feels wronged by another, and everyone else gets sucked into the fray.

Wrong again. 

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Then once it starts your money grubbers see the opportunity to sell arms, plunder riches and then sell rebuilding. Having unlimited cash food etc will be nice, but it won't remove the thing that most drives people to fight... a pure hatred of the other guy

Dear, very few carry hatred to such an extent They will kill rather than avoid someOne They don't like.  Like 0.001%.  Most of Us will rarely if ever encounter One We don't like more than once.  We will spend time with Those We DO like.  Social superconductance as We spend time with the Ones We love and enjoy, can leave the vicinity of any We find distasteful, and can move anywhere We want to.  Another new element in Human history.

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The extremist Muslims HATE our freedom (even such as it is now) and are determined to wipe us out and fall under their way of looking at things

No...  They have been infiltrated by inciters.  They don't care about Our freedoms.  Geez.  Did propaganda work that well on You that You believe that sh1t?  The war profiteers have many infiltrated to incite.

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That Korean buffoon has the same goal and whether or not it will come to much, a lot of people (his mostly) are going to suffer

Or not.  I think it is all just bluster.

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Communism tried to make everyone equal... it failed too because inevitably the wrong people rise to the top.

Again.  Communism is one pie (scarcity), divided up and divvied out by People who are greedy (greed emerges from scarcity) and who keep back for Themselves.  Abundancism is a huge warehouse full of pies from which We each may take as much or as little as We want.

Communism REQUIRES work from People.  Abundancism allows People to contribute or not, as is Their bliss.

Communism:  from Each according to ability; to each according to need.  Abundancism:  from each according to bliss; to each according to desire.

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Your dream is worthy, but humans have a long way to go on the evolutionary scale before we can see such a change that is both global and long lasting....

I disagree.  I think You are applying emergent behaviors inherent in scarcity and assuming they will somehow persist in abundance (and also made a number of errors in estimating the cause of wars...)

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And that is provide we even survive the next coming ice age :P

Well, I will go forth as if We will.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 11:50:13 PM by Amaterasu »
"If the universe is made of mostly Dark Energy...can We use it to run Our cars?"

"If You want peace, take the profit out of war."

Offline Amaterasu

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Re: An Open Letter to the Revolutionaries
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2013, 11:16:42 PM »
Profit is not the only reason for War, Power is the only thing that drives some people. Human nature is what it is. And I say it will never change.

If You had read My linked work, You would know that there is a direct and intimate link that leads to the equation, money=power=energy.

Add free energy and power over Others gives way to autonomous power over Self.  The only tools for holding power will be charisma and good ideas.

Add free energy and the money and the power over Others will dissipate.
"If the universe is made of mostly Dark Energy...can We use it to run Our cars?"

"If You want peace, take the profit out of war."

Offline Anynonmouses

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Re: An Open Letter to the Revolutionaries
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2013, 12:19:04 AM »
Humans change, humans evolve and so do their patterns of thinking. Psychology...NOW you're in MY realm.

If people never change we'd still be owning slave people HERE. Abroad some still own them, and occasionally you might hear about indentured servitude. We have come far since those days, and we're getting further along down the road of decency (governments notwithstanding) than our great grandfathers might have imagined we would.

Control freaks are the trouble with everything. They tend to go around selling the notion that people enjoy being ruled, and by the way--check out this sporty little politician over HERE! We've heard every promise made, and they've ALL been broken to one extent or another. Enough with the control freak paradigm...we'll be evolving now, thanks.

Ammy's onto a great plan and scenario for the future. War is far less likely as a hobby when any one of us can jump into our little BMW space buggy and settle a planet of our own. Under such circumstances I doubt you'll be bribing armies of fatted video game junkies to go marching around with 100 pound packs carrying rifles to go subdue...um...other video addicts, so just cool your jets and take a breath if you think it's all useless, and people just suck.

First of all, as my ubiquitous "Manual For Life" (see above in this thread for the link) states, the REASONS why some people suck will no longer apply. There will not be a government school trying to teach your child tolerance for animal sex, homosexuality, murder or making terrible pizza! We'll be educating our young at home, as we should have been doing throughout history.

Some love to follow and frankly some always will, but there will be much better people to follow, and those who lead will be interested in benefiting ALL OF MANKIND, not just the elite few who like circus clowns, draw audiences of peanut eaters into their circus. If there is no cost for education and information is freely disseminated then we have no gatekeepers disallowing those they don't like from enjoying the fruit of knowledge, which belongs to all of us equally, like it or not.

You need to understand that in what I refer to as "Paradigm Three," we're not lazy, we're freed up from our slavish conditions to mingle around this and every other planet. Does that sound boring to you? If so, perhaps I can charge you an exorbitant rate to reconfigure your obviously broken mind.

The strong preying on the weak will be less of an issue as time and societal norms change to reflect the coming renaissance of technology and freedom. If the only law is "DO NO HARM," then I suggest people will NOT find it a difficult principle to grasp...at least for most.

As for "weak" people...I lived in Slab City, CA near Niland for about a half a year. I can tell you that amongst the BROTHERS (all adult males in legion with common sense who deplore violence and harmful stupidity) we looked out for and protected those who couldn't fend for themselves. It will be more this way everywhere as time goes on.

Here's an in-your-face direct quote from ME: People are not equal, they are unique, and no matter the circumstance, no one is less important, PERIOD!

Peace and Love,
JD
Oasis
aka JD Stenzel
aka Anynonmouses

HUMILUS HUMILIBUS INFLECTENS ARROGANTIBUS (Humble to the humble, inflexible to the arrogant)

Offline zorgon

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Re: An Open Letter to the Revolutionaries
« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2013, 02:43:16 AM »
Not sure what You mean by that.  Get the ideas to the tipping point, and We WILL create a better system.

Well perhaps it is this 'tipping point' you speak of. I disagree that a mere 10% no matter what formula you use is enough to materialize this brave new world you envision

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Darlin', You're missing the point.  The men in the "myth" had ARMIES.  Sure two men alone might have One beat the Other - but NOT vast mayhem, death and destruction.

Those men had no Armies at first... the Armies gathered as certain types stepped into the fray... those that live for war. Hitler was a failed art student, a nobody... but he had one gift... the ability to talk people into following him... even if that led off the cliff :D

Yeah, but it will not be between any but a few men.  NOT vast mayhem, death and destruction.

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[sigh]  There You go trying to pretend fun and games = vast mayhem, death and destruction.  How many of those "loyal" to You would actually enter battle wherein They are rather likely to die?

More than you might imagine, if they felt my cause was just. What you are missing is the current war gamers are turning vast mayhem, death and destruction into video games, but using live ammo. War will become  a game played on video screens with joy sticks with real live drones at the other end... cold, impersonal, robotic

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Again, I will go over this with You.  It absolutely does NOT ignore that humans inherently want a leader - and in fact, this is NOT an inherent aspect of Humans.  SOME want leaders, SOME want autonomy, SOME want to lead.  Many don't want leaders except where things are uncertain and Others seem to have a better handle.


We shall have to agree to disagree on that  8) Cut off food supply and electriciyt for a month in any major city today, then come back and lets talk what happened. ;)

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Be that all as it may, leaders (and followers) will emerge for each project undertaken.  And many will go into fantasy land and pretend some Joe (or Ron) is "king."  Or other such playtime fantasy.

What makes a person a King or a leader? What makes people decide to follow someone?  What you call fantasy is far more real than you can imagine. But be that as it may... one thing is certain... those in my 'kingdom' would be well equiped to survive any disaster and they would be the go to people if the SHTF... You know we even have our own loom so while everyone else is running around like headless chickens, we can still make our own Royal Robes :D  Sure sounds like fantasy to you, but our people have the skills to survive if and when the infrastructure fails. ;)

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Occupy was engineered and BS.  Anonymous is infiltrated and amorphous.  They prove nothing.

Sad but true...

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Yeah.  So?  How many of Their "vassals" are actually killing One anOther?  Or...  Is this make-believe, too?

Well one would hope that no one is killing anyone :P However I would hazzard to guess that 90% of them have killed or would kill in the line of duty or if the need arose. Trust me on this...  If the cops ever go anti public... citizens will want to seek us out to have their back ;)

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And/or just love to escape the real world into fantasy.

I thought you were a big supporter of creating your own reality?  Was that merely talk? or do other people's reality not count?

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Oh, certainly.  BUT...  If any such cults break the three Laws - the rest of Us will mete justice.  Otherwise... Who the funk cares?

Ah well that 'rest of you meting out Justice'... why does that sound the same as the current PTB? Sounds like a lynch mob justice... on the face of it

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I do not aim to end Some following Others - just remove the impetus to follow Others into vast mayhem, death and destruction.

Okay that is good enough  no vast mayhem, death and destruction at the hands of man.

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I'm all over that for family, ferret, or home.  Your right, indeed.  Country in abundance will become mostly meaningless - and Empire?  Heh.  Maybe a fantasy empire...

Well why can't I have an Empire if you say I can have anything I want :P Gotta be some land somewhere in all that abundance that I can use  8)

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You're not seeing things clearly here...

Oh I see clearly :P I just don't see what you see :)

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As for fighting...  Who would Humanity fight?  ET?  If so, I don't think it would matter how "soft" We got.

The Barbarians from the North, naturally (not sure why they always come from the north, but they do... and eventually they WILL come... they always do and always have. ET? What makes you think they are a problem? The ones I have seen so far are not much of a foe :P The Greys sneak around in the dark with Anal probes; We seem to shoot down their craft easily enough (either that are they are lousy pilots :P) The Reptilians? Not seen them do much... the Pleaidians?  Bunch of liars and tricksters from the looks of things...

Nah it will be those Barbarians from the North  8)

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Ah, geez, z.  The MOTIVE to profit starts it all.  The false flags and propaganda and infiltration then begin, with the aim to incite to war.  Then the war starts and the suppliers jump in and feed both sides if They can.  Then the "infrastructure rebuilders come through, all profiting from what They started in the first place.

So your saying they don't make war just because they LIKE it?  Hmmm not what the history books say. And I doubt those Muslim hoardes that have been at war for 2000 plus years care a lot for money or profit... all they want is those 72 virgins ;)

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Humans ARE NOT WARLIKE naturally.  Naturally, They defend and protect.  It takes money/power or a psyop/propaganda to incite to war. 

I disagree... we can choose not to fight today, but it is part of what we are. We have not yet evolved into true beings of Light. Did you know the Apollonauts carried a .45?  Did you know that astronauts are licensed, and carry, handguns as well as semiautomatics out into space? ...yeah okay it's for 'protection' :P

Look go ahead and try to reach that tipping point :D More power to you if it happens. I just don't see it happening or even getting close for at least a hundred years... and by that time this meat sack will be back in the ecosystem feeding those GM foods :P

Offline zorgon

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Re: An Open Letter to the Revolutionaries
« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2013, 03:29:38 AM »
Humans change, humans evolve and so do their patterns of thinking.

I haven't seen a lot of changes since the Cro Magnan race wiped out the Neanderthals with sticks and stone... Only difference I see is that we are more efficient at it now with high tech

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If people never change we'd still be owning slave people HERE. Abroad some still own them, and occasionally you might hear about indentured servitude. We have come far since those days, and we're getting further along down the road of decency (governments notwithstanding) than our great grandfathers might have imagined we would.

You should check out the sub culture on slavery... might shock ya  8)  If your not sqeamish just google that with safe search turned off

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Control freaks are the trouble with everything. They tend to go around selling the notion that people enjoy being ruled, and by the way--check out this sporty little politician over HERE! We've heard every promise made, and they've ALL been broken to one extent or another. Enough with the control freak paradigm...we'll be evolving now, thanks.

Great to hear... evolution does tend to select the fittest... so they say

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Ammy's onto a great plan and scenario for the future. War is far less likely as a hobby when any one of us can jump into our little BMW space buggy and settle a planet of our own. Under such circumstances I doubt you'll be bribing armies of fatted video game junkies to go marching around with 100 pound packs carrying rifles to go subdue...um...other video addicts, so just cool your jets and take a breath if you think it's all useless, and people just suck.

Well a) I don't need to bribe anyone and b) that comment about "fatted video game junkies" may be your reality but in mine it's more like this.  Meet Bjarki the Black... contracted to be my body guard back then. In this picture he is standing beside Gov kenny Guin after we knighted him and the other two are Channel 3 news anchors.  I would not call him a "fatted video game junkie" if I were you. :P He is special forces and volunteers on New years to keep the peace between the Bloods and the Crypts in Nort Las Vegas...

A BMW can be an adrenalin rush, especially on a Rally circuit :P but the War games...  nothing like it to stir the blood

Here is one of our Swordsmith's testing a blade by cutting cinder blocks :D


And pity the poor fool that thought it a good idea to hit the Queen so hard he ripped off her helm and split her lip :P  But the fiesti lass was right back on the field after the hospital put 7 stiches in her lip



http://landoflegendslv.com/07foreign/01ov/images/Events/Forest1999/People/002.jpg

See while you guys are talking some future utopian robot freeloader societywhere everything is free and no one needs to work... and calling us "fatted video game junkies"

...WE are living our dream to its fullest today... :D

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First of all, as my ubiquitous "Manual For Life" (see above in this thread for the link) states, the REASONS why some people suck will no longer apply.

Saw that  I hate that creepy Anon robot voice... makes it hard to get any message 

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There will not be a government school trying to teach your child tolerance for animal sex, homosexuality, murder or making terrible pizza! We'll be educating our young at home, as we should have been doing throughout history.

Some love to follow and frankly some always will, but there will be much better people to follow, and those who lead will be interested in benefiting ALL OF MANKIND, not just the elite few who like circus clowns, draw audiences of peanut eaters into their circus. If there is no cost for education and information is freely disseminated then we have no gatekeepers disallowing those they don't like from enjoying the fruit of knowledge, which belongs to all of us equally, like it or not.

Well here in Las Vegas if there were no laws to keep them in school, most of the kids would rather hang out with the gangs than go to school. Since their parents could care less, who will teach them? For those kids 'home schooling' would be how to shoot a glock 9mm gangland style. I am sure the same is true in most of our inner cities these days

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You need to understand that in what I refer to as "Paradigm Three," we're not lazy, we're freed up from our slavish conditions to mingle around this and every other planet. Does that sound boring to you?

Well the 'proof is in the pudding' as the Brits say... where are the test groups that show that people allowed to run free will not be lazy? So far History has shown us that the more free time people have, the more they turn to lethargy, sloth and decadence in seeking pleasure. They become "fatted video game junkies"  :P

As to other planets, so far the ones we have access to are pretty harsh dreary places. I know a few people that have gone and they don't have a nice travel report.

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If so, perhaps I can charge you an exorbitant rate to reconfigure your obviously broken mind.

Now see? There you go shooting yourself in the foot. If all your talk of world changes is reduced to you 'needing to reconfigure your obviously broken mind'  your whole plan is obviously flawed.  You want to convince me?  Well show me the tipping point and lets see what happens...

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The strong preying on the weak will be less of an issue as time and societal norms change to reflect the coming renaissance of technology and freedom. If the only law is "DO NO HARM," then I suggest people will NOT find it a difficult principle to grasp...at least for most.

Today the majority of people "DO NO HARM" by choice and old do so when pushed into a corner. It is the handful that DO that have cause all our problems. It only takes ONE man to topple a plan if he is a good talker. (I say man because I don't know of any woman that has become a megalomanical despot :P )

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As for "weak" people...I lived in Slab City, CA near Niland for about a half a year. I can tell you that amongst the BROTHERS (all adult males in legion with common sense who deplore violence and harmful stupidity) we looked out for and protected those who couldn't fend for themselves. It will be more this way everywhere as time goes on.

So it is with my current 'support group' but we survive and help in style and comfort :D

Offline Amaterasu

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Re: An Open Letter to the Revolutionaries
« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2013, 08:43:17 AM »
Well perhaps it is this 'tipping point' you speak of. I disagree that a mere 10% no matter what formula you use is enough to materialize this brave new world you envision

Some claim only 1% if They are focused enough...  [shrug]  But whatever the tipping point is - and Malcolm Gladwell pegged it at 10% after much research...*I* will go forth.

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More than you might imagine, if they felt my cause was just. What you are missing is the current war gamers are turning vast mayhem, death and destruction into video games, but using live ammo. War will become  a game played on video screens with joy sticks with real live drones at the other end... cold, impersonal, robotic

I am not missing that.  I know the system is designed to deHumanize, brainwash, and beset Those so processed upon the rest of Us.  As for any Human fighting for a just cause, sure.  I expect it fully.  I am saying few causes are just (but propaganda is used to make it SEEM like there is a "just cause..."), and virtually all are motivated by profit - more food, control of resources, e and t and c.
 
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We shall have to agree to disagree on that  8) Cut off food supply and electriciyt for a month in any major city today, then come back and lets talk what happened. ;)

Yes, z.  People do fight for survival (just cause).  That is not what We are describing.  It's not like abundance will place Humans in positions of fighting for Their survival.  So to take a scenario where survival is at risk and use the behavior as an indication of what Humans are "normally" is a tad disingenuous.

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What makes a person a King or a leader? What makes people decide to follow someone?  What you call fantasy is far more real than you can imagine. But be that as it may... one thing is certain... those in my 'kingdom' would be well equiped to survive any disaster and they would be the go to people if the SHTF... You know we even have our own loom so while everyone else is running around like headless chickens, we can still make our own Royal Robes :D  Sure sounds like fantasy to you, but our people have the skills to survive if and when the infrastructure fails. ;)

Oh, I don't doubt that verisimilitude produces Those who are prepared for the real thing.  I'm just saying that in a stable society, where problems can be solved the best way by Those who emerge from the masses because They are motivated, have well-supported ideas, are NOT motivated by profit for Themselves only (which IS the case most often in scarcity solutions such as capitalism, communism and socialism), nothing but the best results can be expected.

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I thought you were a big supporter of creating your own reality?  Was that merely talk? or do other people's reality not count?

Um...  I am a big supporter of bringing in a system whereby Humans are free to create Their own life.  Never said that, like The Secret, We all can go off and have Our own reality. 

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Ah well that 'rest of you meting out Justice'... why does that sound the same as the current PTB? Sounds like a lynch mob justice... on the face of it

I will have to do a piece on how We process Those few who choose to hurt/kill Others, take/damage Others' property, and/or defraud.  But the accused will always be seen as innocent until proven guilty.  The system differs from Our present one in that the accused is confined by Those who care (if not enough care, it will hardly be considered a crime, eh?), ALL evidence may be presented on both sides via the web, and Those who care (which, in the case of a murder is like3ly to be much of Humanity as word spreads from Human to Human on the web) will decide the case.

No bribable, threatenable judges.  And with all Humans as peers, the "jury" will be of peers.

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Well why can't I have an Empire if you say I can have anything I want :P Gotta be some land somewhere in all that abundance that I can use  8)

Where did You get the idea I said You cannot have any social setup You want with like-minded individuals?  Sure, You can have a group and call Yourself an empire.  You cannot then go forth conquering and creating vast mayhem and death amongst the rest of Humanity, as it breaks the three Laws.  Beyond that...do what Thou wilt.

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The Barbarians from the North, naturally (not sure why they always come from the north, but they do... and eventually they WILL come... they always do and always have. ET? What makes you think they are a problem? The ones I have seen so far are not much of a foe :P The Greys sneak around in the dark with Anal probes; We seem to shoot down their craft easily enough (either that are they are lousy pilots :P) The Reptilians? Not seen them do much... the Pleaidians?  Bunch of liars and tricksters from the looks of things...

Nah it will be those Barbarians from the North  8)

*I* never said ET was a PROBLEM.  I asked who Humanity on this planet would need to defend Themselves from - and offered that as a somewhat tongue-in-cheek inquiry.  You do love to twist words a bit, eh?

As to BFTN (barbarians from the north)...  Um.  Yeah.

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So your saying they don't make war just because they LIKE it?  Hmmm not what the history books say.

Oh, and history books are SO good at giving truth, eh?  No.  War has ALWAYS been for profit - access to resources, more farmland, gold, money...  Few if any woke up one morning and thought, Yeah!  Let's go risk Our lives and try to beat the snot out of Those People just because We LIKE hurting and killing and blood and stuff.

I will not say that never has an Individual gained power through money and was one of the 0.001% that would start sh1t because They were mentally unhealthy, but the rule is that Some have something the initiators of war want.

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And I doubt those Muslim hoardes that have been at war for 2000 plus years care a lot for money or profit... all they want is those 72 virgins ;)

War incitement has been going on a long time...

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I disagree... we can choose not to fight today, but it is part of what we are. We have not yet evolved into true beings of Light. Did you know the Apollonauts carried a .45?  Did you know that astronauts are licensed, and carry, handguns as well as semiautomatics out into space? ...yeah okay it's for 'protection' :P

And *I* say that without Those who would profit from war, war would become virtually nonexistent and though Humans may skirmish over women locally, there will be no such thing as a "world war."

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Look go ahead and try to reach that tipping point :D More power to you if it happens. I just don't see it happening or even getting close for at least a hundred years... and by that time this meat sack will be back in the ecosystem feeding those GM foods :P

Well, I plan to go ahead spreading the ideas, whether I get approval or not.  [grin]  *I* see it happening much sooner because, with the vast connection We Humans have now, ideas can spread far faster than they could even 50 years ago.  And I'm hoping to have some help in spreading these ideas.  All the faster then, they will spread.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 08:56:11 AM by Amaterasu »
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Re: Fake Casino Hides Massive Underground Construction of Super Secret Subway... by Gigas
[January 17, 2018, 11:53:15 AM]


Re: Penney for your thoughts by The Seeker
[January 17, 2018, 11:34:56 AM]


Re: Penney for your thoughts by micjer
[January 17, 2018, 11:07:32 AM]


Penney for your thoughts by Sgt.Rocknroll
[January 17, 2018, 04:26:12 AM]


Re: HAPPY BIRTHDAY, Sarge by Sgt.Rocknroll
[January 17, 2018, 03:43:49 AM]


Re: HAPPY BIRTHDAY, Sarge by Smilingtree
[January 16, 2018, 06:56:20 PM]


Re: HAPPY BIRTHDAY, Sarge by thorfourwinds
[January 16, 2018, 05:48:49 PM]


Re: HAPPY BIRTHDAY, Sarge by Sgt.Rocknroll
[January 16, 2018, 04:26:41 PM]


Re: HAPPY BIRTHDAY, Sarge by ArMaP
[January 16, 2018, 07:07:50 AM]


HAPPY BIRTHDAY, Sarge by The Seeker
[January 16, 2018, 05:40:14 AM]


Re: Music You Love by ArMaP
[January 15, 2018, 02:13:35 PM]