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Author Topic: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now  (Read 14471 times)

Offline petrus4

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Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2012, 02:13:46 PM »
Zorgon, I've just realised, that there is another inherent paradox, involved in your insistence that TAP cannot work.

To the extent that you insist that monarchy is the only system which is conformant with human nature, you cite direct, personal, practical experience, in order to support that claim.  Yet your basis for refuting TAP can only be theoretical in nature, because there has not been an attempt made to implement it.

So there's a catch 22.  People say it can't work, before there has been any attempt to determine whether or not it can.  We can't say that there is hard experimental evidence to support whether or not it will work, because there isn't any; yet people still insist that it won't work, on a purely theoretical basis.
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sky otter

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Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2012, 02:27:59 PM »

Quote
Sure, God is in control; but don't forget that one of the most effective ways that God manifests, is through our own actions.


ah and there is the flaw

we think someone besides ourselves should be in control or is in control and we follow and allow the one we think has control

god if you believe in a/any  god  is not in control..s/he has turned control over to each of us to learn how to use control

3D is where we get an opportunity in each decision we make..even if it is to sit and make no decision
or to bs our way thur life believing that what others think of us matters..or any of it matters
except for our learning personal contol OF OUR POWER

most just give it away

if there is a grade way below F..


Offline petrus4

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Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2012, 02:31:39 PM »
we think someone besides ourselves should be in control or is in control and we follow and allow the one we think has control

I don't.  Ask Zorgon if he thinks I want to live on his reservation.  He knows. ;)
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PLAYSWITHMACHINES

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Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2012, 04:01:29 PM »
Z has a few very good points;
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You can now be dragged out of your house or car, sent to Gitmo and be tortured, just because they don't like you

Or because ya want Obama's head on a platter   That is cause enough. Remember that ex marine that got arrested for saying that on Facebook?  Uh huh... "Freedom" is dead  Better to move to Russia

Russia? no thanks, but i think that may be true now, but not when sh** starts to happen, all the soldiers cops etc have families too....i think that will be their first loyalty, don't you?

Quote
Quote from: petrus4 on 07-12-2012, 21:16:45
"I am aware of humanity's addiction to monarchy, but the difference between you and myself is, that you view it as being a good thing. "

Whether its a good thing or a bad thing is not relevant... what matters is that this is human nature. Humans are a pack animal .  And this addiction... well actually a pathological need to have a leader...
Then we should be busy teaching our future leaders, no?
All kids showing signs of leadership get sent to 'fuhrer school' ja? ::)
Well, send them to a buddhist temple for 5-10 years first, & see where we go from there :P

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is why TAP will fail

I can't see why.
Yes you will still have, & still need, leaders, in the short-term future.
We have evolved our 'pack animal' instinct to the point of there being so many million Elvis fans, or so many million Marxists, or so many million Muslims, but we need our leaders to grow up in an environment of peace & knoweledge, so that they be more like Elvis & less like Vlad the Impaler.
That, of course, will come about only when there is no more war.
Long way to go yet, folks. But i could just maybe stretch my imagination to the point that we COULD do it.
We would simply WANT to do it, that's all.

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Now as to me... having worn the crown I can tell you it has both its good points and its bad points...
I daresay that's very true, look at that bloody mess with Kate's nurse...

Petrus has also some points;
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Amy doesn't actually claim that TAP is completely leaderless.  Another Letter From the Future makes the subtle implication of something akin to a council.

We would need something until we either get to the hive-mind scenario, or something better hapens (for want of a good idea)

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To me, a good scenario would be one where no individual government ruled more than around 500-1,000 people, (which is roughly at, or possibly even slightly beyond, the upper limit of human cognitive ability to keep track of) and where said group were able to participate in said government; or more specifically, that said group was said government.
Thousands of Moderators LOL.
I get the point, but still each group of 1000 would have to agree to co-exist in the same general TAP environment as the groups around them, for this to work.And they will have to communicate with their peers a lot, so a general concensus of the feelings of the peeps is generally known by all 'mods', & this is duly reported back to the peeps.
One would think that as our minds grew more 'cognitive' in this environment, they would also be able to keep track of greater numbers of people. In fact, 'social networking' would probably be a large part of our lives ;)

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Chaos as a social threat is an almost completely (if not truly completely) hypothetical and fictitious fear which the psychopaths who insist that we need centralised government, have indoctrinated us to accept.
I say!
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humans were organising themselves into various different social structures for as long as we have existed.  The usual indigenous model was a relatively small band, which reflected the human cognitive capacity for maintaining individual relationships and accountability, but there were a myriad of others.
True :)
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Does that mean, then, that to the extent that leadership exists, its' emergence and dissolution are dynamic, dependent on the duration of the projects they govern?
...or for the duration of the problem. Once the problem is solved, they can be dissolved.

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But what did they do? They became lazy and went for orgies of abundance.  and in the end the project that was Rome failed  and the barbarians destroyed it
True, but it was our best shot so far.
And yes it's a trap, abundance can turn to decadence, if allowed to happen.
I reckon we'll cross that bridge when we come to it..
Have 2 go,
Later!


Offline Amaterasu

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Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2012, 05:22:06 PM »
Left out the most important part of my opinion "On purpose or accidental?" HHhhMMmm?  ::)

Keeping it honest here....

1WW

I guess I'm not seeing what You're getting at.
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Offline Amaterasu

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Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2012, 05:27:44 PM »
Does that mean, then, that to the extent that leadership exists, its' emergence and dissolution are dynamic, dependent on the duration of the projects they govern?

Exactly.  Oh, and to Your point about chaos...  Many mistakenly think chaos = randomness.  In fact, in chaos there is an infolded or hidden structure out of which comes an ordered pattern within the chaotic "soup."  Randomness is...well...heh...random.

When One heats water, the molecules move chaotically, but the infolded structure emerges in the form of convection cells.
"If the universe is made of mostly Dark Energy...can We use it to run Our cars?"

"If You want peace, take the profit out of war."

Offline Amaterasu

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Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2012, 05:29:26 PM »
Wrong? Ermmm no I have seen it first hand. In my Medieval world people WILLINGLY seek out a strong leader and put the crown on him. You don't just get a crown  The PEOPLE choose you. It is their BLISS and there are over 40,000 people and their support groups world wide in just the one main 'social' group.

z, I did not say that People don't seek to lead or to be led.  The "wrong" was about the "That's why TAP won't work."

EDIT to add:  I would have figured the REST of My reply made that clear.  Really, You aren't THAT dence are You?  In fact I see MANY social cells emerging in the chaos with leaders and followers.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2012, 05:33:48 PM by Amaterasu »
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"If You want peace, take the profit out of war."

Offline Amaterasu

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Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2012, 05:40:08 PM »
Yes  Rome is a prime example.  It was a grand society but slipped into decadence when the citizens lived a life of Abundance. They could literally have everything they wanted (albeit at the exense og outsiders :P ) The built aqauducts, they built a collusium that had CEMENT and could be flooded for sea battles... They had indoor pipe plumbing. They COULD have triggere the industrial revolution.

Wrong (and pay attention to the rest, here).  Rome is a prime example of an energy-scarce society that required Human energy to be input into the system.  Of COURSE it struggled when it was feeding everyOne and all.  TAP is NOT the same.  There is NOTHING in history that is comparable.  EVERY society in the past has been in a scarcity paradigm.

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But what did they do? They became lazy and went for orgies of abundance.  and in the end the project that was Rome failed  and the barbarians destroyed it

Did They institute the Betterment Ethic?  Did They encourage following One's bliss in creating?  No.  They were living with scarce energy in a system that required Human energy input, and had no social guidance principles at all.

Quote
There are more projects in history that are prime examples where a group run by a strong leader with a vision to create a utopia for his people, managed to do what it took to create this dream... only to have it destroyed in its prime

Again with the scarcity paradigm examples?  Irrelevant to TAP.
"If the universe is made of mostly Dark Energy...can We use it to run Our cars?"

"If You want peace, take the profit out of war."

Offline petrus4

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Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2012, 12:44:25 AM »
Exactly.  Oh, and to Your point about chaos...  Many mistakenly think chaos = randomness.  In fact, in chaos there is an infolded or hidden structure out of which comes an ordered pattern within the chaotic "soup."  Randomness is...well...heh...random.

When One heats water, the molecules move chaotically, but the infolded structure emerges in the form of convection cells.

I'm well aware of that, Amy.  You could say that the relationship between order and chaos is something of an interest of mine. :D
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PLAYSWITHMACHINES

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Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2012, 09:30:20 AM »
Beautifully put, Amy :)
Petrus i agree with, also.
Zorgon has many good point also..
I can't agree with all of you, can i?
See, i'm a chaotic person, knew that from the start. I like to call it 'being spontaneous' 8)
There is real truth also in that from the chaos comes order, the boiling water analogy was good.
But what we need is guided chaos, chaos with a general leaning towards goodness, to creation as well as destruction. Nature always solves the problem itself, if we leave it up to her, she might decide that we're too dangerous to be allowed to exist, & she will wipe us out.
Have to go, things to do....

Offline The Matrix Traveller

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Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2012, 11:31:11 AM »
Quote
I'm well aware of that, Amy.  You could say that the relationship between order and chaos is something of an interest of mine.

You aren't wrong there petrus4 re. "Order and Chaos", they are "Opposites" and very much involved in the Processes taking place in us !

One can NOT exist without the Other; Like the Left can't exist without the Right, nor the "Inner" without the The "Outer" ...  :D

You should receive a little GOLD for that statement...   :D

Offline Somamech

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Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
« Reply #41 on: December 09, 2012, 11:49:25 AM »


ah and there is the flaw

we think someone besides ourselves should be in control or is in control and we follow and allow the one we think has control

god if you believe in a/any  god  is not in control..s/he has turned control over to each of us to learn how to use control

3D is where we get an opportunity in each decision we make..even if it is to sit and make no decision
or to bs our way thur life believing that what others think of us matters..or any of it matters
except for our learning personal contol OF OUR POWER

most just give it away

if there is a grade way below F..

Its so odd that WE ALL need reminding of this. 

We all place so much import on a given life span... yet we never die  :o 8)

Offline Amaterasu

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Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
« Reply #42 on: December 09, 2012, 01:27:20 PM »
Beautifully put, Amy :)
Petrus i agree with, also.
Zorgon has many good point also..
I can't agree with all of you, can i?
See, i'm a chaotic person, knew that from the start. I like to call it 'being spontaneous' 8)
There is real truth also in that from the chaos comes order, the boiling water analogy was good.
But what we need is guided chaos, chaos with a general leaning towards goodness, to creation as well as destruction. Nature always solves the problem itself, if we leave it up to her, she might decide that we're too dangerous to be allowed to exist, & she will wipe us out.
Have to go, things to do....

What We need is a chaos based on a positive fractal seed.  That is what I offered up in The End of Entropy.
"If the universe is made of mostly Dark Energy...can We use it to run Our cars?"

"If You want peace, take the profit out of war."

Offline Amaterasu

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Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
« Reply #43 on: December 09, 2012, 01:35:07 PM »
I'm well aware of that, Amy.  You could say that the relationship between order and chaos is something of an interest of mine. :D

I admit, Petrus, I figured YOU knew that. [smile]  That was for the benefit of any who might have been unaware of the very fundamental difference between chaos and randomness.
"If the universe is made of mostly Dark Energy...can We use it to run Our cars?"

"If You want peace, take the profit out of war."

PLAYSWITHMACHINES

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Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
« Reply #44 on: December 09, 2012, 02:39:23 PM »
I loved that, i want to see that statement glowing;

What We need is a chaos based on a positive fractal seed.

Wait 1 while i dig up my favourite fractal image...

« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 02:52:03 PM by PLAYSWITHMACHINES »

 


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