collapse

Author Topic: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now  (Read 14360 times)

Offline zorgon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19910
  • Gold 879
Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2012, 09:13:43 PM »
The Terrorist Laws and the patriot Act have over written the Constitution..

You can now be dragged out of your house or car, sent to Gitmo and be tortured, just because they don't like you :P

Or because ya want Obama's head on a platter :P  That is cause enough. Remember that ex marine that got arrested for saying that on Facebook?  Uh huh... "Freedom" is dead  Better to move to Russia :P

Offline petrus4

  • Iconoclast
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2032
  • Gold 616
Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2012, 09:16:45 PM »
Of what use is the constitution when ...

"Stop throwing the Constitution in my face," Bush screamed back. "It's just a goddamned piece of paper!"

What difference do the words make if no one is enforcing the intent?

The answer to that, is not to allow psychopaths to inhabit the Executive Branch.  Of course, the difficulty with that, is the fact that the entire reason for the Executive Branch, was concession to the existence of psychopaths in the first place.  The Founders created the Executive for the reason that, as you yourself well know, Zorgon, the people will endlessly and relentlessly scream for their Fuhrer; irrespective of the degree to which they are harmed by having one.

I am aware of humanity's addiction to monarchy, but the difference between you and myself is, that you view it as being a good thing. ;)
"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburgers."
        — Abbie Hoffman

Offline zorgon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19910
  • Gold 879
Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2012, 03:34:01 AM »
I am aware of humanity's addiction to monarchy, but the difference between you and myself is, that you view it as being a good thing. ;)

Whether its a good thing or a bad thing is not relevant... what matters is that this is human nature. Humans are a pack animal :D.  And this addiction... well actually a pathological need to have a leader... is why TAP will fail :D

Now as to me... having worn the crown I can tell you it has both its good points and its bad points...

Offline Somamech

  • Order of the Mystic Star
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3337
  • Gold 337
Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2012, 09:21:02 AM »
Sgt.Rocknroll....... 8)

I'm up for a bit of that unlimited jukebox mate ;)  ;D

Offline Amaterasu

  • The Roundtable
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6646
  • Gold 275
  • Information Will Free Us
    • T.A.P. - You're It
Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2012, 10:36:07 AM »
Whether its a good thing or a bad thing is not relevant... what matters is that this is human nature. Humans are a pack animal :D.  And this addiction... well actually a pathological need to have a leader... is why TAP will fail :D

Now as to me... having worn the crown I can tell you it has both its good points and its bad points...

Wrong.  We will have stigmergic emergence of the leaders and causes - difference being that TRUTH will win out, BETTERMENT will be the goal, and no One MANDATING anything.  Bottom up governance as opposed to top down governMENT (controlMIND).
"If the universe is made of mostly Dark Energy...can We use it to run Our cars?"

"If You want peace, take the profit out of war."

Offline petrus4

  • Iconoclast
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2032
  • Gold 616
Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2012, 10:53:36 AM »
Whether its a good thing or a bad thing is not relevant... what matters is that this is human nature. Humans are a pack animal :D.  And this addiction... well actually a pathological need to have a leader... is why TAP will fail :D

Amy doesn't actually claim that TAP is completely leaderless.  Another Letter From the Future makes the subtle implication of something akin to a council.

If we have to have government, then to an extent I can tolerate it; but my own real grievance, more than anything else, is with federalism, and the scenario where a population of hundreds of millions, are ruled by less than 5% of their own number.  That does not and cannot work, because there is no possibility for real accountability.  It also makes a mockery of law, because legislation is passed which does not have the consent of 98% of the governed.

To me, a good scenario would be one where no individual government ruled more than around 500-1,000 people, (which is roughly at, or possibly even slightly beyond, the upper limit of human cognitive ability to keep track of) and where said group were able to participate in said government; or more specifically, that said group was said government.

History has shown that republics can work, but only when they are extremely small.  They don't scale beyond the limits of individual human cognition.
"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburgers."
        — Abbie Hoffman

Offline 1Worldwatcher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1454
  • Gold 145
  • "Why are we all here? Because we ain't all there!"
    • Inception Radio Live-Chat
Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2012, 11:16:48 AM »
Hi Amy,
Not much for political discussion's and don't have the 'Lawyer Up' mentality for such debates, but with what you are saying propagated by a "Stigmergic" indoctrination, wouldn't this be exactly what has happened with in the echelons for Pr esidencies thus far?

STIGMERGY:
Quote
Stigmergy is not restricted to eusocial creatures, or even to physical systems. On the Internet there are many collective projects where users interact only by modifying local parts of their shared virtual environment. Wikipedia is an example of this.[7] The massive structure of information available in a wiki,[8] or an open source software project such as the FreeBSD kernel[8] could be compared to a termite nest; one initial user leaves a seed of an idea (a mudball) which attracts other users who then build upon and modify this initial concept, eventually constructing an elaborate structure of connected thoughts.[9][10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stigmergy

I know intentions you present are suppose too be for the greater good, but if all things are too be considered, there is a major flaw with in your plan, mainly being that everyone has there own agenda, which, in all due respects, would create another event of this "Stigmergic" assumption to then again take place, would it not?

I am not an optimist, per say, but I know when there is confliction with statement and ideological assumptions. I don't think this would turn out the way you want it too, for the simple fact, "I can tell you anything you want too hear, but have Ideals way beyond your perception of the position." and you or anyone else would not know it until it started happening.

Petrus had mentioned that each state should be governed within it's own government, this is a novel idea, but once again, we are not sure of the powers ability to display absolute power, whether it be a good way or bad way until the governance began, and by then, chaos will rear it's ugly head once again too thwart all conceptual prowess to this idea even working in a short term theoretical point of view..IMHO
Tis all leads too a level of empirical socialism, what ever you may have for the answers with yourself is just, right and preempted for the better of all mankind, but the person yielding a "Double Edged Sword" with their words, well, this is what we have been doing in the first place.
Don't see this happening in a good way 100% proof positive.

Great for presenting your Karma for such matters, but not much by way of realities current establishment from one individual too another.

With Great Respects,
1Worldwatcher
"To know men is too have knowledge, to know self is to have insight."

Offline Amaterasu

  • The Roundtable
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6646
  • Gold 275
  • Information Will Free Us
    • T.A.P. - You're It
Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2012, 11:58:11 AM »
Amy doesn't actually claim that TAP is completely leaderless.  Another Letter From the Future makes the subtle implication of something akin to a council.

If we have to have government, then to an extent I can tolerate it; but my own real grievance, more than anything else, is with federalism, and the scenario where a population of hundreds of millions, are ruled by less than 5% of their own number.  That does not and cannot work, because there is no possibility for real accountability.  It also makes a mockery of law, because legislation is passed which does not have the consent of 98% of the governed.

To me, a good scenario would be one where no individual government ruled more than around 500-1,000 people, (which is roughly at, or possibly even slightly beyond, the upper limit of human cognitive ability to keep track of) and where said group were able to participate in said government; or more specifically, that said group was said government.

History has shown that republics can work, but only when they are extremely small.  They don't scale beyond the limits of individual human cognition.

No.  No councils.  Stigmergic efforst with leaders emerging as ideas garner support.
"If the universe is made of mostly Dark Energy...can We use it to run Our cars?"

"If You want peace, take the profit out of war."

Offline Amaterasu

  • The Roundtable
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6646
  • Gold 275
  • Information Will Free Us
    • T.A.P. - You're It
Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2012, 12:01:03 PM »
Hi Amy,
Not much for political discussion's and don't have the 'Lawyer Up' mentality for such debates, but with what you are saying propagated by a "Stigmergic" indoctrination, wouldn't this be exactly what has happened with in the echelons for Pr esidencies thus far?

STIGMERGY:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stigmergy

I know intentions you present are suppose too be for the greater good, but if all things are too be considered, there is a major flaw with in your plan, mainly being that everyone has there own agenda, which, in all due respects, would create another event of this "Stigmergic" assumption to then again take place, would it not?

I am not an optimist, per say, but I know when there is confliction with statement and ideological assumptions. I don't think this would turn out the way you want it too, for the simple fact, "I can tell you anything you want too hear, but have Ideals way beyond your perception of the position." and you or anyone else would not know it until it started happening.

Petrus had mentioned that each state should be governed within it's own government, this is a novel idea, but once again, we are not sure of the powers ability to display absolute power, whether it be a good way or bad way until the governance began, and by then, chaos will rear it's ugly head once again too thwart all conceptual prowess to this idea even working in a short term theoretical point of view..IMHO
Tis all leads too a level of empirical socialism, what ever you may have for the answers with yourself is just, right and preempted for the better of all mankind, but the person yielding a "Double Edged Sword" with their words, well, this is what we have been doing in the first place.
Don't see this happening in a good way 100% proof positive.

Great for presenting your Karma for such matters, but not much by way of realities current establishment from one individual too another.

With Great Respects,
1Worldwatcher

With the removal of the need for exchange, and with the Betterment ethic supplanting Our slave's "ethic" (work "ethic") the agendas will be vastly different and far more positive.  A single One with negative agenda will not gain foothold.
"If the universe is made of mostly Dark Energy...can We use it to run Our cars?"

"If You want peace, take the profit out of war."

Offline 1Worldwatcher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1454
  • Gold 145
  • "Why are we all here? Because we ain't all there!"
    • Inception Radio Live-Chat
Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2012, 12:45:32 PM »
With the removal of the need for exchange, and with the Betterment ethic supplanting Our slave's "ethic" (work "ethic") the agendas will be vastly different and far more positive.  A single One with negative agenda will not gain foothold.

Left out the most important part of my opinion "On purpose or accidental?" HHhhMMmm?  ::)

Quote
STIGMERGY:

Quote
Stigmergy is not restricted to eusocial creatures, or even to physical systems. On the Internet there are many collective projects where users interact only by modifying local parts of their shared virtual environment. Wikipedia is an example of this.[7] The massive structure of information available in a wiki,[8] or an open source software project such as the FreeBSD kernel[8] could be compared to a termite nest; one initial user leaves a seed of an idea (a mudball) which attracts other users who then build upon and modify this initial concept, eventually constructing an elaborate structure of connected thoughts. [9][10]

Keeping it honest here....

1WW
"To know men is too have knowledge, to know self is to have insight."

Offline petrus4

  • Iconoclast
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2032
  • Gold 616
Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2012, 01:16:46 PM »
Petrus had mentioned that each state should be governed within it's own government, this is a novel idea

It's only novel from the perspective that it is taboo.  Federalism is one of the main sacred cows of our society, that if you'll notice, for the most part we do not talk about, or even think about.  Large scale, centralised concentration of political power is simply assumed as a given.  Even those who refer to themselves as anarchists, unfortunately still think in terms of the Internationale.

Quote
but once again, we are not sure of the powers ability to display absolute power, whether it be a good way or bad way until the governance began, and by then, chaos will rear it's ugly head once again too thwart all conceptual prowess to this idea even working in a short term theoretical point of view..IMHO

Chaos as a social threat is an almost completely (if not truly completely) hypothetical and fictitious fear which the psychopaths who insist that we need centralised government, have indoctrinated us to accept.  Before we had the contemporary nation state, or even monarchy, humans were organising themselves into various different social structures for as long as we have existed.  The usual indigenous model was a relatively small band, which reflected the human cognitive capacity for maintaining individual relationships and accountability, but there were a myriad of others.

Zorgon will likely refute this, as he usually does; but I would encourage him to recognise that any disagreement we have on this point is actually minor.  He wants power vested in a single individual, whereas I am more in favour of a legislative body consisting of the population itself; but where we both seem to agree, is on the need for each individual realm to be of relatively small size, in either case.

Quote
Tis all leads too a level of empirical socialism, what ever you may have for the answers with yourself is just, right and preempted for the better of all mankind, but the person yielding a "Double Edged Sword" with their words, well, this is what we have been doing in the first place.

The central problem always comes back to the psychopaths.  As long as the psychopaths exist, and as long as the non-psychopathic majority defends and advocates their rule, and refuses to actively wield its' sovereignty, then we can talk about literally any kind of political or economic system we want, and we are still just drawing hypothetical castles in the sky.

Quote
Don't see this happening in a good way 100% proof positive.

We will only see fundamentally positive change, when the public realise that psychopathic governance is actually more detrimental to them and to their needs, than self-rule. 

The central problem with monarchy, is that it is inconsistent.  If I could have a king who would govern my affairs as competently and benevolently as I could myself, then why would I not want that?  All the king would do in such a scenario, would be to save me work.  The issue, however, is that while Rome had the likes of Marcus Aurelius and Augustus, it also had Caligula and Nero. 

Zorgon himself might well not be a tyrant, but how can he give me any guarantee that his heirs will not be?  In the event that they are, then if I am to recognise their divine right to governance, I have no recourse.
"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburgers."
        — Abbie Hoffman

Offline petrus4

  • Iconoclast
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2032
  • Gold 616
Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2012, 01:24:59 PM »
No.  No councils.  Stigmergic efforts with leaders emerging as ideas garner support.

Does that mean, then, that to the extent that leadership exists, its' emergence and dissolution are dynamic, dependent on the duration of the projects they govern?
"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburgers."
        — Abbie Hoffman

Offline zorgon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19910
  • Gold 879
Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2012, 01:25:06 PM »
Wrong. 

Wrong? Ermmm no I have seen it first hand. In my Medieval world people WILLINGLY seek out a strong leader and put the crown on him. You don't just get a crown  The PEOPLE choose you. It is their BLISS and there are over 40,000 people and their support groups world wide in just the one main 'social' group.

So I see it first hand. And these people have money (its not cheap to live a Medieval lifestyle these days :P) and many of them are military or the like.  These are the people that are the driving force. These are the people with the guts to lay on each other with swords, or get on a horsey and knock someone off theirs with a big stick

You cannot fight this human nature without reprogramming the species... and if you do THAT, you are the enemy with your own brand of MIND control.

The thing is that the reality of Planet Earth is that we are a cradle... a kindergarten in the scheme of the Universe. We are barely starting out on the journey of life. Most souls on Earth are young souls... (despite the fact that all these newagers think they are ready for enlightenment and ascension :P)  Doesn't work that way... there is no free ride to the next level... it has to be earned.

Earth IS Hell... THIS is where we go through our trials and personal purgatories. THIS is where the soul learns what it needs to advance...

And if you fail this time around, no worries... you get to take the class over again :P


Some people in misery on this rock? Well most likely they are paying the price for previous 'errors'  and as the saying goes "Penance is Good for the Soul"

Their is no need to save humanity... it's all in the Universal Plan. Suffrage strengthens the Soul. There are powerful lessons to be learned from humility.

Governments come and go... Empires are built, shine in the Glory of the Day and then are destroyed by the next group, who then build a new Empire

Population Growth..

I see all the conspiracy nuts daily talking about how the PTB wants us all dead in any of a thousand plots to reduce our numbers. Yet despite the fact that weapons of mass destruction have ever increased in power and their ability to annihilate millions...  Still the population of the world is increasing exponentially.  With all the biological stuff THEY have wiping out vast populations would be a matter of DAYS.... so as far as I can see... they have no such intent and its all BS

On the other hand, the more people that their are on this rock, the more will die when Mother Nature unleashes her wrath on the world...

Sumatra Tsunami for example. The last time they had one... there were only a few fishing villages in the area and they were smart enough to see the signs of receding water and headed uphill.  Those same villagers and ALL the animals did the same thing this time and ALL were spared...

But over 250,000 people died that day... not because of a government plot, not because of some malevolent godlike entity, but because the area is now swarming with people that have no clue about the reality of their environment.  Some were collecting the seashells when the tide went out :P  I have no pity for those types.

The point in all of this is the Universe is Unfolding as it should. We are here to learn for the next level. All the games and pity battles here are fleeting and mean nothing in the end...




Offline zorgon

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19910
  • Gold 879
Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2012, 01:30:21 PM »
Does that mean, then, that to the extent that leadership exists, its' emergence and dissolution are dynamic, dependent on the duration of the projects they govern?

Yes  Rome is a prime example.  It was a grand society but slipped into decadence when the citizens lived a life of Abundance. They could literally have everything they wanted (albeit at the exense og outsiders :P ) The built aqauducts, they built a collusium that had CEMENT and could be flooded for sea battles... They had indoor pipe plumbing. They COULD have triggere the industrial revolution.

But what did they do? They became lazy and went for orgies of abundance.  and in the end the project that was Rome failed  and the barbarians destroyed it

There are more projects in history that are prime examples where a group run by a strong leader with a vision to create a utopia for his people, managed to do what it took to create this dream... only to have it destroyed in its prime

Offline petrus4

  • Iconoclast
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2032
  • Gold 616
Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2012, 01:40:13 PM »
Wrong? Ermmm no I have seen it first hand. In my Medieval world people WILLINGLY seek out a strong leader and put the crown on him. You don't just get a crown  The PEOPLE choose you. It is their BLISS and there are over 40,000 people and their support groups world wide in just the one main 'social' group.

I will never forget a particular incident that occurred for me in World of Warcraft, once.

To offer some background, I used to play Capture the Flag games in WoW; and it eventually got to the point where I ended up leading teams, as well.  The teams were ten man squads, with each game running for 60 minutes.  On the day in question, I'd managed to co-ordinate wins in two straight games; and while we were in the game's equivalent of a lobby, waiting to enter the third, I started discussing strategy for the next game with other members of my team.

In terms of the game mechanics, leadership of a particular group was identified by a small crown icon, which up to that point, I hadn't had; I'd been doing it informally, and people had been going along with my suggestions because they had worked.  At some point in that conversation, however, whoever had previously held said icon passed it to me.  It was completely wordless; no attention was drawn to it...but I saw it as a validation of what I'd been able to do for the group.  So as I have said before, some of my own experience bears out some of your observations.

Quote
So I see it first hand. And these people have money (its not cheap to live a Medieval lifestyle these days :P) and many of them are military or the like.

There is a clue here though, Zorgon.  Military are trained to accept a scenario of leaders and followers; and that in itself is a system of thought reform.  If the people you've got with you are primarily military, then that explains a lot.

The other problem with your belief in the inevitability of monarchy, is that at least the early history of your own country directly contradicts it.  One of the most constantly heard refrains among the Founders was that they did not want a king.  There is massive evidence, of which America's founding is only one element, to support the idea that centralised monarchy is a system of government which humanity is gradually, developmentally moving away from.  Yes, the process is slow, but there is a process.

Quote
The point in all of this is the Universe is Unfolding as it should. We are here to learn for the next level. All the games and pity battles here are fleeting and mean nothing in the end...

Sure, God is in control; but don't forget that one of the most effective ways that God manifests, is through our own actions. ;)
« Last Edit: December 08, 2012, 01:42:34 PM by petrus4 »
"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburgers."
        — Abbie Hoffman

 


Wal-Mart.com USA, LLC
affiliate_link
Free Click Tracking
Wal-Mart.com USA, LLC

* Recent Posts

Re: By the stars, John Lear makes a headline on Rense by The Seeker
[Today at 02:48:26 PM]


Re: By the stars, John Lear makes a headline on Rense by Gigas
[Today at 02:45:11 PM]


Re: By the stars, John Lear makes a headline on Rense by The Seeker
[Today at 11:26:22 AM]


Underwater Drones by spacemaverick
[Today at 10:22:14 AM]


Re: 411 by Irene
[Today at 09:27:25 AM]


By the stars, John Lear makes a headline on Rense by Gigas
[Today at 09:19:52 AM]


Re: More Jobs Down the Drain Sam's Club Closed 63 Stores today by petrus4
[January 21, 2018, 10:13:18 PM]


Re: 411 by Gigas
[January 21, 2018, 08:46:05 PM]


Re: Kavalan Whisky! by Irene
[January 21, 2018, 06:47:33 PM]


Re: 411 by Irene
[January 21, 2018, 06:29:38 PM]


Re: Alinsky's guide to control... by ArMaP
[January 21, 2018, 09:42:49 AM]


Re: Mars Structure Examined by Eighthman
[January 21, 2018, 08:23:27 AM]


Re: More Jobs Down the Drain Sam's Club Closed 63 Stores today by starwarp2000
[January 21, 2018, 07:48:10 AM]


Re: Mars Structure Examined by starwarp2000
[January 21, 2018, 07:34:16 AM]


Re: Alinsky's guide to control... by starwarp2000
[January 21, 2018, 07:26:35 AM]


Re: I think im he reason for the gov shutdown by robomont
[January 21, 2018, 02:59:07 AM]


Re: I think im he reason for the gov shutdown by petrus4
[January 21, 2018, 02:32:20 AM]


Re: Penney for your thoughts by petrus4
[January 21, 2018, 02:28:36 AM]


Re: Penney for your thoughts by hoss58
[January 21, 2018, 01:02:50 AM]


Re: Penney for your thoughts by Gigas
[January 20, 2018, 08:07:32 PM]