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Author Topic: Who Will Be The Next Scapegoat?  (Read 2115 times)

Offline The Seeker

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Re: Who Will Be The Next Scapegoat?
« Reply #45 on: August 31, 2017, 12:11:54 PM »
Seeker, although I've mentioned being very Millennial psychologically in some respects, one of the things I've had to do, is take a good, hard look at what mediocrity really means.
Petrus, over the time you have spent here with us on the forum, we have watched as you have started the process of discovery; you are one of the few I have encountered that can see past the hurdles you face; at the least, you recognize they are there

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Being Millennial for me, has meant first and foremost that I have unrealistic and distorted expectations, which in turn has meant that I've had to get my head out of the clouds.  At the moment I am re-focusing on tangible, physical survival; warmth, shelter, food, and water.  Most people these days are likely to laugh at that and say that it's easy, but the truth is that it isn't.  Even these supposedly high-flying 25 year olds in programming or whatever only really maintain the image while at Starbuck's.  Follow them home after that, however, and the image isn't so rosy; a lot of the time they're close to starving.  They have money, yes; but they're spending it at expensive retail food outlets which exist in a massively inflated economy.  They don't know how to cook, and they usually don't really know how to provide good nutrition for themselves.

Exactly; I will use myself as an example; by the time I was 16 years old, I could cook anything I chose, could handle all the plowing and planting, harvesting, and storage prep, slaughter a hog, chicken, or cow, fish, or hunt;

but I grew up in simpler, non-electronic times, and everything I just listed was a normal part of life, long before cable tv, video games, computers, or the internet.

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So yes; to be quite honest, relative to people like Bill Gates or Richard Branson, I now think mediocrity is fine.  Mediocrity in my context, however, means minding my own business, (at least to a degree) and knowing how to solve my own immediate problems as effectively as possible.
I wouldn't consider that being mediocre; that is part of the maturing process, where we recognize that we, and we alone, are responsible for our actions and survival.

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Again, this is something which I've had to try and get real about, from both ends of the spectrum.  If I don't do well, then I'm not necessarily in a position where someone else is going to entirely pick up the slack.  I'm buying rice, muesli and flour now, and I'm learning that if I haven't cooked, then I'm going to go hungry.  Given that I live in a communal environment, it's true that sometimes I can just sit outside and smoke cones and have someone else give me dinner; but even that is not free.  A person who cooks for me is going to want enough weed in exchange for it, that I would be ahead economically if I had cooked myself.
That realization is also part of the process; nothing is free, everything has a cost, in some way.

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At the same time, however, I'm letting go of a lot of juvenile over-projections and flights of fancy that Amway brainwashed me with 20 years ago now.  I'm not expecting to be a rock star any more; but I'm also starting to believe that if I am conscientious, just because I'm not rich it doesn't automatically mean I'm a loser.  I am also starting to realise that it is much, much, MUCH more important to have real emotional and spiritual stability and strength than any amount of money.  My faith keeps me alive.

I've realised recently that the biggest source of energetic weakening for me, has been to ever put myself on a pedestal where I am looking down at anyone else, and accusing them of being responsible for my own problems.  Some Christians would have called that wickedness, but the entire reason why I don't want to bother calling it wicked, is because doing that is also accusatory and therefore just keeps the whole dynamic and game going.  Rather than referring to everything as "evil," the way fundamentalist Christian preachers sometimes do, I've found that a much more beneficial approach is simply to realise that some actions will have undesirable consequences, so I shouldn't engage in them.
You are growing, Petrus; the goal is to become your own person, with your own standards, beliefs, and morals; no one but you can see your accomplishments and truly judge; only you can. Keep your head up, don't be afraid to ask those who might know more, and think deeply before making a choice. Always be on the learning curve

 8)

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« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 12:14:06 PM by The Seeker »
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Offline ArMaP

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Re: Who Will Be The Next Scapegoat?
« Reply #46 on: August 31, 2017, 12:46:07 PM »
Exactly; I will use myself as an example; by the time I was 16 years old, I could cook anything I chose, could handle all the plowing and planting, harvesting, and storage prep, slaughter a hog, chicken, or cow, fish, or hunt;

but I grew up in simpler, non-electronic times, and everything I just listed was a normal part of life, long before cable tv, video games, computers, or the internet.
How common was it in a city to plant, harvest and slaughter animals at that time?

I think one of the problems is that a larger part of the population lives in cities now, so the percentage of people that never even saw something being planted cannot know how to do it (unless they watch a video on YouTube).

One thing I find strange in this "millenials" thing is that it looks like people are quick to accuse them of several things that are the result of education, but they do not accuse their parents of not giving them a good education and never talk about the possible reasons behind the whole situation.

Anyone has any theory for it? I know I do not, but I do not know personally any "millenial".

Offline The Seeker

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Re: Who Will Be The Next Scapegoat?
« Reply #47 on: August 31, 2017, 02:59:36 PM »
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Quote from: ArMaP on Today at 14:46:07

How common was it in a city to plant, harvest and slaughter animals at that time?

I think one of the problems is that a larger part of the population lives in cities now, so the percentage of people that never even saw something being planted cannot know how to do it (unless they watch a video on YouTube).

One thing I find strange in this "millenials" thing is that it looks like people are quick to accuse them of several things that are the result of education, but they do not accuse their parents of not giving them a good education and never talk about the possible reasons behind the whole situation.

Anyone has any theory for it? I know I do not, but I do not know personally any "millenial".

There are several different factors at work:

A.) The parents seem to inherently want their kids to have it better than they did.

B.) For the last 30-40 years, both parents have to work full time jobs in order to stay ahead of the game, which diminishes the available time to spend teaching the kids normal life.

C.) With the millenial generation, corporal punishment and discipline in general has went out the window, which in turns lead to not having respect instilled for any type of authority; plus add in the seeds of distrust sown in the 60's for any "establishment".

D.) And for the city dwellers, it is true that it is hard to learn survival skills if their parents never took them camping, hunting, or fishing; a percentage of them never took them out into the country, even for a Sunday drive.

The difficult part is getting them to realize that they don't have everything under control, don't understand the concept of hard work, or that they will have to fend for themselves, one way or another, for they have never had to do much for themselves;

The parents are partly to blame, the education system is partly to blame, so it isn't any one thing that has lead up to this point, but many; and the disillusionment of multiple entitlement programs only leads deeper down the rabbit hole, for nothing is free, someone has to pay for it.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 03:40:45 PM by Irene »
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Offline Irene

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Re: Who Will Be The Next Scapegoat?
« Reply #48 on: August 31, 2017, 03:40:01 PM »
I'm going to spar with you a bit, Seeker.

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There are several different factors at work:

A.) the parents seem to inherently want their kids to have it better than they did.

I think every generation wants this for their children.

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B.)For the last 30-40 years, both parents have to work full time jobs in order to stay ahead of the game, which diminishes the available time to spend teaching the kids normal life.

My brother, sister and me were latchkey kids. For years the only time we saw our parents was in the evenings.

We all turned out well because in that short window, over the years, they instilled us with respectable values.

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C.) With the millenial generation, corporal punishment and discipline in general has {went} out the window, which in turns lead to not having respect instilled for any type of authority; plus add in the seeds of distrust sown in the 60's for any "establishment".

I agree with this. Pain is a great motivator. A slap upside the head when you f*ck up is very effective.

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D.) And for the city dwellers, it is true that it is hard to learn survival skills if their parents never took them camping, hunting, or fishing; a percentage of them never took them out into the country, even for a Sunday drive

As kids we weren't exposed to these sorts of things, but over the years we learned about them through books and friendships. There is much to be said for the old ways.

Nowadays, everyone is in Mom's basement 24/7 playing video games and masturbating. They make zero effort to self-educate, emotionally mature, and take personal responsibility for themselves and their behavior.

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The difficult part is getting them to realize that they don't have everything under control, don't understand the concept of hard work, or that they will have to fend for themselves, one way or another, for they have never had to do much for themselves;

The parents are partly to blame, the education system is partly to blame, so it isn't any one thing that has lead up to this point, but many; and the disillusionment of multiple entitlement programs only leads deeper down the rabbit hole, for nothing is free, someone has to pay for it.

The educational system in this country is absolute sh*t now. All those supposed teachers care about is poisoning young minds with their caustic politics.

At the university level, which is the educational equivalent of high school 30 years ago, the leeches are inculcated with socialist principles and encouraged to make as much trouble as possible for the people who are paying the bills.
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Offline Eighthman

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Re: Who Will Be The Next Scapegoat?
« Reply #49 on: August 31, 2017, 03:54:42 PM »
When I was a young boy, I asked about my great uncle.  My mom said, "he was young during the Depression when many men didn't get married or start families".  Fast forward to 2018, and it may be worse.

I work with millennials and I would feel sorry for them if they seemed less accepting of their condition - often half broke and without goals.  Young guys appear more dedicated to their smartphones than any girlfriend and hang out "vaping" together.  The alternative is often becoming a sperm donor with a checking account - rather than an appreciated father, so I can't blame them.  Young women often seem to be raised as some sort of feminist royalty. You can knock both genders equally and be unable to imagine another generation being born by them.

I reject any educational claim that seems to treat children as an entirely new species that we have no experience with.  Likewise, I note that lots of young radicals act as if they had practical wisdom in dealing with hate and violence - greater than Buddha, Jesus, Gandhi, and Martin Luther King.  What the f**K are they being taught?

I also think that, while it is true that older people traditionally complain about "kids these days", it is also a danger to our society to simply ignore negative trends around us - and wonder about the end result.

Offline ArMaP

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Re: Who Will Be The Next Scapegoat?
« Reply #50 on: August 31, 2017, 04:12:16 PM »
The parents are partly to blame, the education system is partly to blame, so it isn't any one thing that has lead up to this point, but many; and the disillusionment of multiple entitlement programs only leads deeper down the rabbit hole, for nothing is free, someone has to pay for it.
So, why did their parents behave in a different way from the way their own parents behaved? And why was the education system changed? What changes were introduced?

Offline Irene

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Re: Who Will Be The Next Scapegoat?
« Reply #51 on: August 31, 2017, 04:26:04 PM »
So, why did their parents behave in a different way from the way their own parents behaved? And why was the education system changed? What changes were introduced?

ArMaP,

I know you're talking to Seeker, but I'll share my view while you wait for his answer, if you don't mind.

Parents over here stopped expecting their children to grow up. They stopped effectively disciplining them and began letting them engage in behaviors that were forbidden by parents of previous generations.

One glaring example that absolutely stuns me is there are parents here who let their teenage children's boyfriend/girlfriend live with them in their home and have sex!

The educational system began changing in the mid-80's. The curricula morphed to politically motivated content with a distinct Liberal bent. Everything is now oriented to the Socialist agenda and patriotism, the simple love for the country that has nurtured them, is dead.

These are not citizens of the United States. They are puppets of Rex Mundi.
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Offline The Seeker

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Re: Who Will Be The Next Scapegoat?
« Reply #52 on: August 31, 2017, 04:46:38 PM »
So, why did their parents behave in a different way from the way their own parents behaved? And why was the education system changed? What changes were introduced?
America lost it's innocence in the 60's; JFK was asassinated, Vietnam was very unpopular, the hippies and their free love-smoke dope-tune in and turnoff influenced a lot of young people; then Dr. Benjamin Spock came along and screwed up everyone with his ideas of how to raise children without discipline (the bad part about that is Spock renigged on all his bovine feces teachings 20 years later when his son committed suicide)

Let;s jump to the late 70's; all those left wing hippies now have college degrees and have been ensconced in the educational system ever since...
Most of the students are very book smart, but have never been taught how to reason, wonder, or how to try to investigate and solve problems...

The old adage of Adapt, overcome, improvise, divide, and conquer is a totally strange concept to them; plus the whole education system is so pissed up that you can graduate high school and not be able to read on a third grade level...
"No child left behind" is nothing more that a fancy way of saying don't make them try...
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Offline petrus4

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Re: Who Will Be The Next Scapegoat?
« Reply #53 on: August 31, 2017, 09:11:37 PM »
My response to your post is this, if your parents had expected your generation to emotionally mature quickly, as had been the practice with earlier generations, you would have been well on your way to a prosperous life much earlier.

I don't know whether emotional maturity was or is my problem as such, simply from the point of view that I learned very early that my parents were actually far more ethically and emotionally juvenile than I was.

I have two main problems, psychologically; at least that I can recognise right now.

a}  Although I'm now largely getting over it, I've always struggled with the fact that, while I was at school, (and even more during the period when I first lived alone) I constantly felt like I was being hunted, and that I needed to avoid bullies and various kinds of predators.  I know you'll probably say that this is normal, but the main reason why it has been destructive is because it has completely destroyed my capacity for any form of long term planning, due to the sense that I don't necessarily feel that I'm going to still be alive at all in another 24 hours.  Nimbin has allowed me to feel safer than I ever have in my life before, but I still strongly prefer to remain on the property where I live, and I do not like going into the town to buy food before the early evening.  I also continually struggle with a desire to do nothing other than to go back to my bedroom at my mother's house, permanently close the door, and just degenerate in front of the computer, simply because that is where I have the greatest sense of security.  I am, however, able to look at how much I've improved while in Nimbin, and so the desire to go back is lessening, simply because I don't want to regress to that condition.

I do still feel deep depression at times over the idea that I live in what I consider to be a literally Apocalyptic society; but this is also getting better because I am realising that I can still enjoy and find my own beauty in life, regardless of how bad the outside world might be.  I do occasionally still regret the fact that I wasn't born during a more peaceful and morally elevated period, but I am accepting that living in this age is my karma for whatever reason, and all I can do is the best I can in the here and now.

b}  Although I am also recovering from this as well, to a small degree I still emotionally struggle at times with the idea that, as far as most Christians I've known are concerned, I am not saved.  Given the fact that part of my reason for coming to Nimbin (although I only realised this relatively recently) was a genuine desire to emulate the life of Jesus Christ as directly as I can, this has at times been a source of enormous pain for me.  Prayer now gives me great calm and stability, however; and so I am coming to the realisation that if Jesus himself approves of me, it doesn't really matter what the rest of his followers think.

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It is the practice now for parents to allow their children to be perpetual children. This has not served your generation well. It has handicapped you and, consequently, negatively affected future generations.

Yes, but the irony is, that the main handicap is simply the idea, in and of itself, that I've supposedly had horrible things done to me by other people.  The only real problem that most Millennials have, is the degree to which they've been indoctrinated to view themselves as victims.  Regardless of whatever other issues you have, victimhood is the worst possible trap you can fall into, because it causes you to assume that you don't have the ability to improve.

So while I recognise that in some ways, my past may not have been that great, I'm noticing that the only way I can improve my present, is to stop focusing on said past.

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The goal in the past has been to raise intelligent, skilled, disciplined children as quickly as possible, the objective being for them to support themselves and contribute to society as a whole as soon as they reached legal age.

My childhood was spent during the 80s.  My positive male role model was not primarily my father, but a combination of two of my uncles, Jesus, Popeye, (who has actually been a much greater influence than I had consciously realised until recently) Optimus Prime, Batman, Martin Riggs, and John McClaine.  You might notice how many of these are fictional characters; and yes, that has caused about the level of psychological issues that you might expect.

On the positive side, however, said characters did give me a strong and at times uncompromising sense of personal ethics.  At this point I am also much less inclined towards real violence than most of the people I know as well.  That is mainly because I have experienced a small amount of it, (although still a lot more than the average urban civilian Millennial is ever likely to see) which means that I know that it is a very, very different thing to what is depicted in movies or video games.

I still play violent video games, though.  A couple of days ago, the most psychologically beneficial experience I've had in recent memory, came from the rediscovery of a Super Nintendo emulator on my hard drive, along with a copy of Super Double Dragon.  Dragons for some reason have been all over the place for me over the last week or so; I had an LSD trip yesterday and was seeing them everywhere I looked.  Given what I already know is the conventional Christian opinion of my spiritual condition, that made me about as uncomfortable as you might imagine, but I know Zorgon would probably consider that positive.

The main reason why I dislike dragons is because I've truthfully always seen them as symbols of predation and tyranny; but ironically I only really started seeing them yesterday, when I had the thought that what I wanted to stand for, was creating as strong a sense of stability for myself and the people in my immediate vicinity as possible.  I then started getting images of platforms of dense rock, with black dragons with their wings spread, extruded around the outer edges, as though they were holding them up.  I also started seeing dragons' heads in the trees.  I don't know what that meant, and I truthfully still feel awkward thinking about it; but again, I know Zorgon would probably not consider it anything negative, and might even tell me that I should feel honoured.

There was also one other experience, during another LSD trip close to a year ago, where I was lying in bed and noticed that the folds and shadows of my covers, formed the image of a baby dragon asleep on my bed, right in front of me.  That scared me to the point where I think I tried to consciously repress all memory of it, but it came back after yesterday.

One of my uncles is a convicted paedophile, but not long before he committed that act, he started filling his house with furniture and ornaments that had black dragons all over them.  That is another large part of the reason why I generally don't want anything to do with dragons as an idea at all, truthfully, to the point of considering them traumatic as mentioned; because again, I view them as exclusively predatory and that their mental/energetic influence is only likely to be destructive to me.

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The last couple of generations lack the perspective of previous generations who battled through the Depression and two world wars. Obviously, it goes back further than that, but I don't think I need to recite the list.

There has been a systematic, deliberate, inter-generational attempt to render humanity extinct, and my own situation is the product of that.  I've read The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion, and too much other material on that particular campaign to name.  I know more about it than I probably should, but for the sake of my mental and spiritual health, I no longer primarily focus on it.

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Immature narcissism is murdering your future.

My 40th birthday was seven months ago now.  As a result, I've tried hard to emotionally come to terms with the fact that that particular ship has already sailed.  I have no partner, no children while being at the end of child bearing age, and currently live in a two square meter room in a backpacker hostel.  My total net economic worth is currently around $900 AUD, and that is exclusively from the government.  I also have a single kidney and severe myopia, (although I still don't need glasses yet) among various other problems.  I am aware that the conventional opinion would probably be that I should find a handgun, put it in my mouth, and spare myself the experience of what is most likely a foregone conclusion at this point.  I am not, however, going to do that.

I do not know if humanity as a species is going to survive, but I do know that if it does, it won't be because of me.  Yesterday while on the acid trip, I thought of that, as I often do, and Eric Idle's quote from The Life of Brian came into my mind.

"You come in with nothing, you go out with nothing.  What have you lost?  Nothing."
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Offline petrus4

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Re: Who Will Be The Next Scapegoat?
« Reply #54 on: September 01, 2017, 12:11:11 AM »
then Dr. Benjamin Spock came along and screwed up everyone with his ideas of how to raise children without discipline (the bad part about that is Spock renigged on all his bovine feces teachings 20 years later when his son committed suicide)

There are reasons why I am conflicted about the use of corporal punishment.

In my own experience, I am more likely to learn not to put my hand on a hot plate (to use an example) if it has actually been the hot plate itself that burned me, rather than being slapped by a parent.  I don't have anyone around to smack me now, but as I've already written in another post, I know from experience that if I don't either cook or buy food, then I do not eat, and that is simply a consequence of Nature itself, not anything my parents might do.  My parents were more likely to punish me for something I had done which had simply angered them, rather than because they were trying to prevent me from doing something which would harm me.

On the other hand, I think most arguments in favour of corporal punishment, tend to revolve around a parent needing to have a tactic of last resort, which I can see the merit of.  Whether I advocate corporal punishment myself or not, I also absolutely believe in a parent's right to decide to use it.  The state should have no right to intercede whatsoever there; because apart from anything else, that implies that it is actually the state that has custody of the child, rather than the parents.

I think the real issue here, more than corporal punishment itself, is a concern that children now are missing out on the experience of fortifying hardship, and again, based on my own experience, I very much believe that a healthy amount of that is developmentally of critical importance.

When I was playing World of Warcraft, there was initially a scenario where the game's difficulty followed an incrementally increasing curve, up to end-game raiding, which was the most difficult activity in the game.  Later on, however, the game was dumbed down, and the levelling curve was flattened, all the way up to said end-game raiding.  The raid instances themselves were still just as hard, however, which meant that new players were going into them without any of the requisite skills, or the level of familiarity with their classes that they needed in order to handle such a challenge.  As a result, the entire raid scene turned into an unprofessional mess, and most of the truly competent guilds (in-game player fraternities, essentially) left the game in disgust.  People also started complaining that they were bored with the game far more frequently than in the past.

The other related experience I've had with gaming, is a realisation that developing my ability as a player is my only real reason to keep playing.  I will enjoy individual games, yes; but once I've become as good at a game as I can, I put it down and want another game which is going to continue to challenge me.  I enjoy the experience of improvement; unless I'm doing it as a form of relaxation, however, I don't enjoy gliding effortlessly through a game I'm already at my peak in.

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Most of the students are very book smart, but have never been taught how to reason, wonder, or how to try to investigate and solve problems...

I wasn't either.  Aside from grammar, everything of value I got from school was obtained in the library during the lunch hour.  I was never taught anything about generalised or abstract logic at all, and I only learned because I read the Bible, a small amount of Aristotle, Machiavelli, the UNIX development philosophy, and various bits of Chinese philosophy as well, among other books which I can't remember off the top of my head.  I was also taught rhetoric via debating Christians on IRC during the mid to late 1990s. 

Aside from a very small amount of Jefferson, Franklin, and Kant, (who I admire) I haven't touched the Enlightenment authors at all.  Most of them seem to me to have been very thorough logically, but to have spent close to the same amount of time trying to defend colonialism.  I am not going to waste my time morally condemning either colonialism, federalism, or slavery, because even though I am opposed to all three of those things, I also believe that time has and will demonstrate that they are flawed paradigms which fail by themselves, regardless of my or anyone else's opinion of them.  I am slowly learning to never emotionally judge anything, if empiricism can be used to demonstrate why the idea in question is defective for a particular purpose.

My approach to doing anything comes primarily from my time with UNIX, my time in Minecraft, the Kybalion, and my study of ancient Egypt and Rome.  In Minecraft my architecture is generally either Egyptian, Gothic-ish with buttresses and such, or Roman post and lintel with pseudo-Doric columns, which are easiest to imitate in computer games because they are not ornate.  My choice of colours is usually Spartan.



I got the sense of proportion with the pillars from them, and I still like the look, although that is an old map, and the brown floor seems a bit depressing to me now.

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"No child left behind" is nothing more that a fancy way of saying don't make them try...

I recognised that as the conspiracy that it was, as soon as I heard about it.  Rote memorisation of certain sets of numbers is useful in mathematics, but in no other subject, as much as is understanding of general principles.  The Egyptians have also taught me that multiplication and division only really exist as forms of convenience.  In actual fact, addition and subtraction are the only things that exist.  Seven times seven, actually means seven added to itself seven times.

Code: [Select]
1   7
2   14
4   28

1 + 2 + 4 = 7.

28 + 14 = 42.

42 + 7 = 49.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 12:15:31 AM by petrus4 »
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Offline ArMaP

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Re: Who Will Be The Next Scapegoat?
« Reply #55 on: September 01, 2017, 06:12:58 AM »
Thanks Irene and The Seeker. :)

Looking at the Wikipedia article about Dr. Spock, it looks like people accepted what he said as if it was an absolute truth, something I notice is very common in the US, when someone is considered (for whatever reason) to be an important person people accept everything that comes from that person.

In this case it looks like he said things of which he wasn't even sure, with many negative effects in millions of people.

Another thing I noticed is that it sounds like those were mostly overreactions to war, both WWII and the Vietnam war, so what looked like a good idea turned into a not so good result.

Interesting.

Offline ArMaP

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Re: Who Will Be The Next Scapegoat?
« Reply #56 on: September 01, 2017, 06:21:09 AM »
I do not know if humanity as a species is going to survive, but I do know that if it does, it won't be because of me.
You never know.

You may have never done anything that is going to change the world, but you can never know how what you do and what you say (mostly what you say, as the Internet has the power to send it all over the world) affects other people and what they can do because of what you said. :)

Offline Irene

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Re: Who Will Be The Next Scapegoat?
« Reply #57 on: September 01, 2017, 08:27:17 AM »
You never know.

You may have never done anything that is going to change the world, but you can never know how what you do and what you say (mostly what you say, as the Internet has the power to send it all over the world) affects other people and what they can do because of what you said. :)

I agree. If you have only positively influenced one person in your entire lifetime, you have made a difference.
Shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods.....

Offline Eighthman

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Re: Who Will Be The Next Scapegoat?
« Reply #58 on: September 07, 2017, 04:10:38 PM »
Woo Hoo !

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-09-07/senate-passes-debt-ceilinggovt-funding-deal-heres-what-happens-next

This could be a Fantastic turning point !!!!  Trump cuts a deal with Schumer and Democrats deliver.  This suggests that both parties MUST Get Stuff Done because a rogue President can cut deals with either. This might go a long way towards halting the destructive polarization of the US - AND putting a 'monkey wrench' in efforts to impeach the President.  Guys like Schumer could reason 'which is better, a deal making Trump or a hard Republican like Pence?"

Could be very positive.

 


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