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Author Topic: Attacking the Messenger  (Read 4312 times)

Offline petrus4

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Re: Tickling the Messenger
« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2017, 07:24:58 AM »
One thing I learned after almost 6 years on this forum and exactly 13 years on ATS is that politics discussions between Europeans and Americans don't work, as both sides use different definitions for basic political topics, like "socialism".

My perspective is that socialism is basically a strawman.  For the cabal who invented it, Marxism was intended to be a false replacement for the entire concept of mutually symbiotic co-operation between people.   

a}  Marxism succeeds in becoming accepted globally, which results in a global dictatorship that initially starts out looking like the Federation from Star Trek, but very quickly goes bad.  You're essentially looking at Pol Pot becoming the Dear Leader of the entire planet, rather than just Cambodia.

OR

b}  Marxism is rejected, either before or after a}, which results in a universal acceptance of the false idea that Hobbes was right, and that we should never try and be remotely empathetic or generous towards our fellow man ever again.  This means naive psychopaths like Milton Friedman being able to ecstatically gloat to any of their opponents that, "you had your chance, and it didn't work," which in turn means Randian Objectivism becomes enshrined more or less forever as the predominant way of doing things.

The only fundamental difference between unrestrained Capitalism and Communism, is that with Communism you die quickly, whereas with Capitalism it happens more slowly.  The Communist modus operandi is to get the gulags opened early, with death itself essentially becoming an industrially mass produced commodity.

Capitalist dystopia is more subtle.  In that scenario you have a few billionaires in gated communities here and there, but outside the enclaves it's essentially back to Somalia.  You could argue that that would give humanity overall a better chance of long term survival, perhaps, except that uncontrolled Capitalism will also eventually result in the planet no longer being able to support carbon based life.  Your average Capitalist entrepreneur is also usually a transhumanist, so they don't care about that virtually at all.  They just assume that when the environment dies completely, we'll be able to climb aboard starships and go off-world.  The Right hate environmentalism, because one of the main ways that they make money is via spewing carbon monoxide into the air in massive quantities; and so they think that any restriction to their ability to do that, is a restriction of their ability to make money, which is the only thing they care about.

I also don't believe in any fundamental difference between Socialism and Communism, other than a matter of degree.  The concept of "Democratic Socialism," is complete and utter BS, because you'll virtually never see a democratic socialist who does not also believe in the governmental monopoly of violence.  Belief in gun ownership and being a socialist are almost mutually exclusive in practice.  This means that democratic socialists expect governments to remain democratic, with all of the power that has been given to them that a socialist government implies, when they have given up their last and most fundamental means of bargaining with said government.  It's a completely delusional fantasy.

Humanity is a species with two fundamental, and fatal flaws.

a}  The need for at least some individuals to perceive themselves as superior to others.

b}  The need to exist within a predatory, exploitative social hierarchy.  As a species we are almost exclusively divided into leaders and followers.  The followers are usually those who were psychologically broken during childhood, (either by their primary caregivers or by their experience with the education system, the latter of which largely did it for me) or are those who never had much ambition to begin with.  The leaders can be anywhere between mildly Type A, (best case scenario) to full blown psychopaths.

The only thing the followers care about is social approval, which they generally assume that they need to survive.  These are the people who rely on "experts," for literally everything they think; they are also the people who defer to the psychopathic teenagers in secondary schools who are the leaders of social cliques.  I remember seeing the "good girls," in class at high school; the ones who virtually never said a word to anyone, who literally seemed barely alive at all, but who always got "A"s on their report cards in literally every subject.  I've often wished I could have heard their internal thoughts, out of curiousity; to see whether they were as passive internally as they seemed externally.  I've sometimes wondered what happened to them as well, since I've never known any of them as adults.

The point is though, that the above dynamic is what we need to overcome, if we want continued survival as a species.  We've been locked in civilisational boom and bust cycles for a very long time now; some civilisation will get sufficiently large that it more or less takes over the planet, at which point its' size renders it unsustainable.

Humanity needs to get off that roller coaster; but the reason why I can't see that happening, is because on the one hand you have the hard Right who think that conflict and ambition are the only things worth living for, and on the other you have the hard Left who think that having a planetary scale, centralised mess where everyone is just indefinitely given free stuff, is the only way we should live.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 07:31:08 AM by Amaterasu »
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Offline Amaterasu

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Re: Tickling the Messenger
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2017, 08:11:26 AM »
You think its bad now? Wait till the Robots take over everything  No one will have a job because the robots will build themselves ;p

Robots, like all such things are TOOLS.  The intent of the wielder is what counts.  And robots are no issue if We stop accounting for Human energy input into a system that accounts for Human energy.  We need free energy for that, though.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 07:31:28 AM by Amaterasu »
"If the universe is made of mostly Dark Energy...can We use it to run Our cars?"

"If You want peace, take the profit out of war."

Offline Amaterasu

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Re: Tickling the Messenger
« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2017, 08:13:52 AM »
Most of the people I've seen, have been taught to be morbidly terrified of anonymity.  The idea is that you must, at all costs, establish yourself as someone who is different and special from everyone else, because supposedly to not do that is a fate worse than death.

That is the fundamental paradigm break between Socialism and Capitalism.  I only hear Socialists talking about maintaining a relatively minimal baseline level of human survival.  Capitalism, on the other hand, is about getting as much as you possibly can, in order to use that as a means of demonstrating your alleged superiority to others.

I am not a Socialist, because Socialism is fundamentally and unavoidably collective in nature; and if there is one thing that my life experience has overwhelmingly taught me, it is that human group dynamics are inevitably and unavoidably pathological, at least long term; and that collectives of any kind are not to be trusted.  I am never safer than when I am alone.

I am not a Capitalist either, however, because I don't believe in becoming a billionaire as a justification for elitism.

While the merits of socialism vs capitalism are interesting, again, I point out again that what I propose is neither.  I propose abundancism.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 07:31:45 AM by Amaterasu »
"If the universe is made of mostly Dark Energy...can We use it to run Our cars?"

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Offline Amaterasu

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Re: Tickling the Messenger
« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2017, 08:21:17 AM »
Judging by this new thread, you are not solving your problems ethically.

Splitting the threads was the right choice, but the title you chose shows that you are using your power in this sub-forum, in which you are moderator, in the same way the "psychopaths" you keep talking about do.

If you read the posts without the bias of being one of the sides of the discussion, you will see that it was not the messenger that was being attacked, Irene's post was an answer to your opinion, and we all have the right to an opinion and to express it, as long as we keep insults out.

It was not so much that initial post as it was the fact that, because My hard work is unpaid, and (it seems) not understood, in the end, I was being told that I was "making excuses" for not working at McDonald's (a corporation that provably puts HUMAN meat in many of the burgers it offers).  Even though, at 60, and spending My life in pain, working 30+ YEARS like that, that now I am DISABLED, with thumbs shot, hunting/pecking on My computer with My fingers, I am being told there is something wrong with Me for not flipping burgers!

Yes, it is an attack on Me. 
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 07:32:04 AM by Amaterasu »
"If the universe is made of mostly Dark Energy...can We use it to run Our cars?"

"If You want peace, take the profit out of war."

Offline ArMaP

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Re: Tickling the Messenger
« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2017, 08:25:15 AM »
My perspective is that socialism is basically a strawman.  For the cabal who invented it, Marxism was intended to be a false replacement for the entire concept of mutually symbiotic co-operation between people.
Well, the way I see it, the problem is that things, in reality, do not follow the theories, so the real world socialism is not a copy of theoretical socialism, in the same way real world capitalism is not an exact copy of theoretical capitalism.

As with all other things, when someone looks into an ideology, unless they are full "followers" that do not think for themselves, they will adapt the ideology to their own personality, and, in a larger scale, to their country's "personality". That's why communism in the old USSR was not the same as communism in China, and both were completely different from communism in European countries.

The fact is, people just want to be happy, but what makes one person happy doesn't make the next one happy, and may even make them unhappy, so it's impossible to get any system in which all people are happy.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 07:32:21 AM by Amaterasu »

Offline ArMaP

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Re: Tickling the Messenger
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2017, 08:44:42 AM »
It was not so much that initial post as it was the fact that, because My hard work is unpaid, and (it seems) not understood, in the end, I was being told that I was "making excuses" for not working at McDonald's (a corporation that provably puts HUMAN meat in many of the burgers it offers).
Then why did you include the initial post, that was an answer to a post that you left on the other thread? Breaking the flow of the discussion makes the start of this thread look illogical and makes the member that made that post look bad.

Quote
Even though, at 60, and spending My life in pain, working 30+ YEARS like that, that now I am DISABLED, with thumbs shot, hunting/pecking on My computer with My fingers, I am being told there is something wrong with Me for not flipping burgers!
From the way I see it, it was more of a generic "flipping burgers" than a real "flipping burgers". There are many things a disabled person can do in the world today, they just need what you already have, a working brain, being able to write and Internet access. You just need to look for the right kind of job instead of looking for your favourite kind of job. And, as I have said some years ago, in a thread in which we were discussing your résumé (and that was abandoned, for whatever reason), I think you approach to applying for a job is wrong, although, not being in the US, I'm not really into what people want to read on a job application.

Quote
Yes, it is an attack on Me.
No, it was an opinion about the way you act. Even if it had been a personal attack, it wasn't because of any "message" you were conveying, so it was not against any "messenger". So, with those two actions (the splitting of the thread in the middle of a discussion and the choosing of a tittle that favours your position) you showed how easy it is for someone with power to abuse it.

But that's just my opinion. ;)

« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 07:32:37 AM by Amaterasu »

Offline Amaterasu

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Re: Tickling the Messenger
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2017, 09:17:46 AM »
Then why did you include the initial post, that was an answer to a post that you left on the other thread? Breaking the flow of the discussion makes the start of this thread look illogical and makes the member that made that post look bad.

An error on My part.  Humble apologies to Any who chose to be upset.

Quote
From the way I see it, it was more of a generic "flipping burgers" than a real "flipping burgers". There are many things a disabled person can do in the world today, they just need what you already have, a working brain, being able to write and Internet access. You just need to look for the right kind of job instead of looking for your favourite kind of job. And, as I have said some years ago, in a thread in which we were discussing your résumé (and that was abandoned, for whatever reason), I think you approach to applying for a job is wrong, although, not being in the US, I'm not really into what people want to read on a job application.

ArMaP, McDonald's and flipping burgers were specifically brought up with a "They're hiring" at the end.  That sounds specifically McDonalds and flipping burgers to Me.  And in that 100,000+ job applications I have made, I have applied for every job I can do, along with a fair few I thought I could not.  At this point, what little effort I can make is mostly working on developing co-creators for better on Our planet and a wee bit of forum response.  Do I think I will do better for Humanity generically flipping burgers than what I do now?  Absolutely not.  And I don't CARE what Others think on that score.

Quote
No, it was an opinion about the way you act. Even if it had been a personal attack, it wasn't because of any "message" you were conveying, so it was not against any "messenger". So, with those two actions (the splitting of the thread in the middle of a discussion and the choosing of a tittle that favours your position) you showed how easy it is for someone with power to abuse it.

But that's just my opinion. ;)

Ok.  Whatever. 
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 07:32:53 AM by Amaterasu »
"If the universe is made of mostly Dark Energy...can We use it to run Our cars?"

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Offline petrus4

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Re: Tickling the Messenger
« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2017, 09:47:21 AM »
Even though, at 60, and spending My life in pain, working 30+ YEARS like that, that now I am DISABLED, with thumbs shot, hunting/pecking on My computer with My fingers, I am being told there is something wrong with Me for not flipping burgers!

I wouldn't flip burgers either.  With that said, I have as many reasons to feel sorry for myself as anyone else, if I choose to.  Something Nimbin taught me, however, is that the only thing self-pity does, is occupy time which I could be using to improve my situation.

Get out of the cities, Amy.  I see videos on YouTube about abandoned towns in America, all the time.  There are empty houses, and there is wood and other materials free for the taking.  The very earth itself contains numerous materials that you can build things with.





Focus on improving your own life.  I don't mean doing that at anyone else's expense, and I don't mean becoming a billionaire; but I do mean spending your time in quiet places, and learning how to make fire.

The woods are calling.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 07:33:10 AM by Amaterasu »
"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburgers."
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Offline ArMaP

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Re: Tickling the Messenger
« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2017, 09:53:39 AM »
An error on My part.  Humble apologies to Any who chose to be upset.
It's not a question of being upset, it's a question of being truthful to the discussion.

Quote
ArMaP, McDonald's and flipping burgers were specifically brought up with a "They're hiring" at the end.  That sounds specifically McDonalds and flipping burgers to Me.
It may be because English is not my language, but to me it sounds like a generic "there are people hiring, even if it's a low pay job".

Quote
And in that 100,000+ job applications I have made, I have applied for every job I can do, along with a fair few I thought I could not.
Why did you apply for jobs you cannot do? What's the point? Being able to say that you applied to 100,000+ jobs?

Quote
At this point, what little effort I can make is mostly working on developing co-creators for better on Our planet and a wee bit of forum response.
Well, judging from this discussion, the planet did not get any better. :(

Quote
Do I think I will do better for Humanity generically flipping burgers than what I do now?  Absolutely not.  And I don't CARE what Others think on that score.
But someone is "flipping burgers" so you can have food, shelter and Internet access, so I hope you do care about what they think.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 07:33:28 AM by Amaterasu »

Offline Shasta56

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Re: Tickling the Messenger
« Reply #39 on: June 24, 2017, 12:17:57 PM »
I work with a disabled population.  Most of them are very appreciative.  One of them has an attitude of entitlement.  My ex is disabled, and tends toward an attitude of entitlement where our daughter is concerned.  He walked out when she she was a month old, but now that he's dying of pancreatic cancer, she should drop everything and move to Oklahoma to take care of him.  My husband's ex thought she should be able to Social Security Disability because she couldn't get a job.  She couldn't get a job because of her drug convictions.  She wasn't too disabled to go tubing on the South Platte.  She drowned because she didn't believe in wearing a life vest.  She was entitled to do whatever she wanted, whenever she wanted.  Until and unless, people get past their sense of entitlement, abundance is unlikely to happen.

Shasta
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 07:33:44 AM by Amaterasu »
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Offline biggles

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Re: Tickling the Messenger
« Reply #40 on: June 24, 2017, 01:45:40 PM »
As far as Oz goes we have a points system to grade whether you can go on a disability pension.

I have bipolar (I hate that word), I prefer manic depression, because that actually explains the condition better.

I had to bring specialist's proof of my condition, documents from psychiatrist informing what I have and what meds I am on; and also MRI reports of my neck which show the pathology there.  They will only do an operation when I develop neuropathy in both my arms and I am trying to steer clear of that op, cause I know what can go wrong very easily.

Once you achieve a certain amount of points you are given a decision based on that.

There are a lot of people in the US and other countries that should be on one and also a lot that shouldn't because their only try to get out of work.

If you cant find a job your put on a Newstart allowance until you find one down here and usually have help to find one.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 07:34:01 AM by Amaterasu »
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Online zorgon

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Re: Tickling the Messenger
« Reply #41 on: June 24, 2017, 01:59:45 PM »
LOL!  I have news for You.  NO ONE does ANYTHING but for Selfish reasons.  It may be because They feel good having helped anOther.  But it is ALWAYS a Selfish motivation.

Quote
Robots and Those who LOVE to farm will feed Us.  Robots and Those who LOVE to build cars will build Our cars.  Robots and People who LOVE to help heal Others will see to Our medical needs.  (Today, "medical needs" are seen to by Those motivated by MONEY, not healing Others...)

Those two statements are a complete contradiction. you acknowledge that most people have selfish reasons (and that is human nature and survival instinct).

Yet you "program" requires a lot of people to work tirelessly to build robots so the rest can live free off the hog

THAT is the main flaw in your system...  Having worked many jobs in my life one thing was a common TRUTH  Whenever you have a situation where a few do 80% of the work while the rest just put in time yet get the same paycheck, you will have serious problems. 

Everyone has run into this  the guy or gal that is always taking the extra smoke break or bathroom break. Go to any government office like the DMV and sit and watch.  You will see a few people processing several people quickly and efficiently in an hour  while many others are fidgiting with papers, getting up to check on something, pretending to types etc  Anything so they don't actually have to do any real work. THAT is why you wait so long in line...but then miraculously just at closing time they start to hustle

Your system has many flaws  like WHO will PAY to build the initial robots when they know that once built they will have a) no return on the investment and b) no future job. Your plan requires MANY people to give up everything and spend all they have to build the system. That is just not reality

Your system also completely ignores the BILLIONS of Chinese who are just now learning capitalism works as long as they stay out of politics and they LIKE it... and far outnumber us

Your system also completely ignores the BILLION or so Muslims who detest everything Western civilization has to offer. By admission of their own Sultans, these people already don't work and their only mission is to force their paradigm down everyone's throat.  And despite your belief that all the woes in the world are False Flags... anyone with a grip on reality can see that the Islamic invasion by immigration and migration has begun full swing

But mainly what you are expecting is that the 20% of hard workers, the movers and the shakers in the world, will give up their own 'selfish' pursuits and dreams so they can build that few system for the 80% Useless Eaters :P

Just not practical and history has showed us repeatedly what happens when anyone tries to start a Utopian society
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 07:34:17 AM by Amaterasu »

Online zorgon

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Re: Tickling the Messenger
« Reply #42 on: June 24, 2017, 02:08:40 PM »
So, We are responsible for vetting Our information.  And You are comparing a web that has profit and power motives - where lies are protected - with what the web would be without such.  AnyOne found willfully putting out falsities would lose greatly in social currency.  No longer would They be trusted.  No longer would They have appreciation.  No longer would They have respect or be taken seriously.

Well that will mean that the internet will be a GHOST TOWN  Just look at Twitter and Facebook  90% of what people post (that isn't a selfie, photo or what they had for lunch) is PURE BULLSH!T  Either shared fron tabloid or made up hoaxes. Yet the sheep keep reposting these and believing them true  NO ONE vets ANYTHING because it takes to look  Even I have been caught reacting before checking (though I admit I like to stir the pot from time to time to wake the dead :P )

All the UFO stuff, the False Flag stuff, the Chentrail crap, the FEMA camp BS, the Nibiru and Flat Earth crap  on and on...  And this has NOTHING to do with money or control  it is what happens when you let the children play with matches

So all those people are already bankrupt in social currancy   but the REAL problem is that they actually BELIEVE the BS
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 07:34:33 AM by Amaterasu »

Offline biggles

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Re: Tickling the Messenger
« Reply #43 on: June 24, 2017, 02:21:10 PM »
I very much disagree with the quote "no one does anything except for selfish reasons".

I don't.  And that's the last I'm posting on this thread now.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 07:34:48 AM by Amaterasu »
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Online zorgon

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Re: Tickling the Messenger
« Reply #44 on: June 24, 2017, 02:37:21 PM »
I am not a Capitalist either, however, because I don't believe in becoming a billionaire as a justification for elitism.


Capitalism does not require you to become a Billionaire.  That is just Greed :P Capitalism gives you the FREEDOM to set your own level of comfort.

You don'y even have to really work... with online systems availbale like Etsy Amazon and Ebay and a score of others  you can sell ANYTHING online from your home... physical items, written works and artwork.

You can look at Craigslist daily under EVENTS  All kinds of free money and offers available  like writing product reviews for $50.00 a pop. Had a fellow on facebook that needed a job so I told him that craigslist in Vegas has many temp gigs like a greeter at a convention.  He said he lived in Cincinatti so I pulled up his local listing and right on the first page they were hiring movie extras that week and he humped on it

You can be a capitalist without falling victim to greed and only get what you need to be comfortable

Here is one  LOL a tad funny but real

Midget needed for weekend
© craigslist
compensation: $600.00 for the weekend
Look to hire a Midget to work as butler, maid, Etc. Must be able to smile and have fun. Not looking for a sex work so please do not apply. Job will not be till September 8 Thur the 10. Job pays $600.00 for the weekend. Will also cover food and drinks.


Here is a quick $100.00 to collect info from competitors booths

Student for collection at Convention ASAP! (Wynn Las Vegas)

compensation: $100USD flat rate plus Bonus per valid document

Looking for a Student or Resident for a 1 Day gig to collect from the pharmaceutical companies exhibiting at the medical conference, "DERM 2017" between 7/20-7/23 at Wynn Las Vegas.

We are looking for someone to collect the pharma/drug brochures, publications, and freebies that are available at the Pharmaceutical Companies booths.

$100USD flat rate plus Bonus per valid document


Trade Show Assistant for IBS and IECSC (Las Vegas Convention Center)
compensation: $20-25/hr


There are so many but yes you have to weed through scams and sex ads :P 
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 07:35:04 AM by Amaterasu »

 


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