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Author Topic: Attacking the Messenger  (Read 3457 times)

Offline Amaterasu

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Re: Tickling the Messenger
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2017, 09:21:33 AM »
Amy, can you not see that you, too, are a slave? You are a slave to an outdated ideology.

ROFL!  "Outdated ideology!"  The concept of abundancism is new.  The idea of Ethical anarchy may not be new, but Few have entertained it.  The idea of a solutocracy is unique.  What is archaic are the ideas that We need a controlmind, We need to account for Our energy added.  I ponder who has the outdated ideology here...

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I like to think idealistically as well. I always think about what I'd do if I won the lottery, but I also always come to my senses.

I do not think idealistically.  I think practically, and the biggest block to free Humanity from the wage/debt slavery Most see as "necessary" is getting free energy out in the open.

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You say that you're spreading awareness. You can have a philosophy PhD, but you're not much use to society if all you can do is discuss ideas.

I do not "discuss."  I seek co-creators.  I offer ideas on how to co-create better here.  This is not something I alone can do.  What I can do is formulate the system (done) and work to get Many to help build it.  If You think I alone can do this, then I suppose You might think that an Individual can conceive of a city, all its workings, and then build it by Oneself. 

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If you want to talk the talk, great, but you also have to walk the walk.

And walk I do.  I have withdrawn consent from any ruler/state/king/queen.  I am sovereign on MY planet (and as I have said, it's YOUR planet, too).  I consent to Ethical anarchy in a solutocracy.  When enough of Us are doing the same, building it together, We WILL create better.

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Talk. Is. Cheap.

Gods, I loathe that "periods in between words" fad that the powers that be started.

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Even in the Socialist paradigm everyone has to physically contribute to the collective in order that the collective may prosper. No one can be a slacker.

Again, I am NOT a socialist.  I am an abundancist.  They are two very different animals.

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Most importantly, who would you put in charge? No matter what system you function under, someone has to lead.

Leaders emerge for each problem as it arises.  Ethically solving for it.  No One is "in charge" for all problems.  This way, the CARING Ones take care of things, the Ones with the BEST ideas for solving problems, Ones with the BEST expertise.  And without money, problems are not solved the cheapest way, the most profitable way for Some, or left to fester because there is no money to solve for them, as things are being done Now.

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We see how that worked out in the former Soviet Union.

The soviet union had two major flaws:  top-down controlmind and money.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 07:26:34 AM by Amaterasu »
"If the universe is made of mostly Dark Energy...can We use it to run Our cars?"

"If You want peace, take the profit out of war."

Offline Amaterasu

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Re: Tickling the Messenger
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2017, 09:27:01 AM »
Talk. Is. Cheap.

How else would You suggest I begin in getting Others to help build better on Our planet?  Fart?
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 07:26:52 AM by Amaterasu »
"If the universe is made of mostly Dark Energy...can We use it to run Our cars?"

"If You want peace, take the profit out of war."

Offline Irene

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Re: Tickling the Messenger
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2017, 09:31:16 AM »
What if everyone decided they don't want to work?

Who would feed us? Who would build our cars? Who would see to our medical needs?

I'd add who would educate us, but that debacle is a thread in itself.

You've said yourself that you're living off the backs of your friends. Isn't that parasitic?

If we all choose to do nothing, thinking the paradigm will provide for us, we die. There is no one to service our needs.

We've come full circle, haven't we? We've just become the slaves, and the corpses, of our own flawed ideology.

Someone has to take responsibility for our existence. Those of us who work /worked, in whatever fields, have done more for our fellow man than all the hot air balloonists in history.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 07:27:08 AM by Amaterasu »
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Offline Amaterasu

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Re: Tickling the Messenger
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2017, 10:01:18 AM »
What if everyone decided they don't want to work?

PLENTY of People love to work on robots...  We WILL do work We love to do.  It will NEVER happen that EVERYONE will do nothing.  At the very least, We WILL be motivated to solve for problems that affect Us.

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Who would feed us? Who would build our cars? Who would see to our medical needs?

Robots and Those who LOVE to farm will feed Us.  Robots and Those who LOVE to build cars will build Our cars.  Robots and People who LOVE to help heal Others will see to Our medical needs.  (Today, "medical needs" are seen to by Those motivated by MONEY, not healing Others...)

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I'd add who would educate us, but that debacle is a thread in itself.

With the web, We can Self-educate, which is FAR better an education than the indoctrination centers called "schools," and Those who LOVE to teach will help out, as well.

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You've said yourself that you're living off the backs of your friends. Isn't that parasitic?

No.  Because it's not as if I have not TRIED, for a decade and more, to gain employment.  If You think over 100,000 job applications is "not trying," I ponder Your perspective.  And if I am correct, and the evidence surely suggests this, that I am targeted, and there are Those who actively seek My failure, then all the trying in the world is pointless.  I do not "live off Their backs," but sleep on Their floors and use Their WIFI's, which They have anyway.  I do what I must to survive and seek co-creators.

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If we all choose to do nothing, thinking the paradigm will provide for us, we die. There is no one to service our needs.

But I don't say the paradigm will "provide for Us."  We all WILL solve problems, at the very least, and Most will choose to add to the betterment through what They LOVE to do.  Humans are not lazy when it comes to doing what They love to do.  And in adding value to society, We earn social currency, accounted for in hearts and minds.  Even now, PLENTY of People do things, not for money, but for the thanks, appreciation, reputation, lauds, love, gratefulness, bragging rights, Self-satisfaction They receive.  Little things and big things.

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We've come full circle, haven't we? We've just become the slaves, and the corpses, of our own flawed ideology.

Huh?  No clue what this is suggesting.

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Someone has to take responsibility for our existence. Those of us who work /worked, in whatever fields, have done more for our fellow man than all the hot air balloonists in history.

We Each take responsibility for Self.  And solving problems Ethically as they arise.  We are problem-solvers by nature, so I doubt there will be Many who would not seek to solve the problems that affect Them.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 07:27:26 AM by Amaterasu »
"If the universe is made of mostly Dark Energy...can We use it to run Our cars?"

"If You want peace, take the profit out of war."

Offline Irene

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Re: Tickling the Messenger
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2017, 11:27:30 AM »
PLENTY of People love to work on robots... We WILL do work We love to do. It will NEVER happen that EVERYONE will do nothing. At the very least, We WILL be motivated to solve for problems that affect Us.

Pure selfishness is not a rational system.

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Robots and Those who LOVE to farm will feed Us. Robots and Those who LOVE to build cars will build Our cars. Robots and People who LOVE to help heal Others will see to Our medical needs. (Today, "medical needs" are seen to by Those motivated by MONEY, not healing Others...)

I'm sorry. The hippies didn't accomplish much more than reproduction and the destruction of a society that had been running fairly well.

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With the web, We can Self-educate, which is FAR better an education than the indoctrination centers called "schools," and Those who LOVE to teach will help out, as well.

I believe you are smoking, heavily, something other than Marlboros.

The internet is a free-for-all. All information must be thoroughly vetted before it can be trusted.

Unfortunately, the same is now true for the US educational system. It has been infiltrated by political lunatics who want, not to teach the truth, but to indoctrinate into leftist ideologies and historic revisionism.

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No. Because it's not as if I have not TRIED, for a decade and more, to gain employment. If You think over 100,000 job applications is "not trying," I ponder Your perspective. And if I am correct, and the evidence surely suggests this, that I am targeted, and there are Those who actively seek My failure, then all the trying in the world is pointless. I do not "live off Their backs," but sleep on Their floors and use Their WIFI's, which They have anyway. I do what I must to survive and seek co-creators.

This is an incredibly interesting, and just plain incredible, paragraph.

1. Drop some zeroes and I will concede you have honestly tried to get a job. Have you flipped burgers for fatties at McDonald's? They are always hiring.

If your answer is no, then you haven't tried hard enough.

2. Nice try. "Co-creators" is a euphemism for your economic victims. You confess this with your statement that they'd have a home and internet anyway. So, why not use them to meet your selfish needs in the process, right?

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But I don't say the paradigm will "provide for Us." We all WILL solve problems, at the very least, and Most will choose to add to the betterment through what They LOVE to do. Humans are not lazy when it comes to doing what They love to do. And in adding value to society, We earn social currency, accounted for in hearts and minds. Even now, PLENTY of People do things, not for money, but for the thanks, appreciation, reputation, lauds, love, gratefulness, bragging rights, Self-satisfaction They receive. Little things and big things.

See my reply regarding hippies.

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Huh? No clue what this is suggesting.

What statement don't you understand? You must have an idea, as you've used the word "suggestion".

I do know what you mean, and I also recognize your lame obfuscation.

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We Each take responsibility for Self. And solving problems Ethically as they arise. We are problem-solvers by nature, so I doubt there will be Many who would not seek to solve the problems that affect Them.

You aren't. You are relying on the good will of people you know, which is a parasitic relationship.

par·a·site
[ˈperəˌsīt]
NOUN

an organism that lives in or on another organism (its host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the host's expense.

a person who habitually relies on or exploits others and gives nothing in return...


... but philosophical wind.

"Out, damned spot!"

I can hear you licking your lips. Who'd have known your friends had so much blood in them.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 07:27:46 AM by Amaterasu »
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Offline ArMaP

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Re: Tickling the Messenger
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2017, 12:38:19 PM »
No.  Because it's not as if I have not TRIED, for a decade and more, to gain employment.
When I was unemployed I was aware that I was being a "parasite" of my parents, regardless of the fact of looking for work or not. Intent doesn't make a fact disappear.

Even if you try to find a job you are still a parasite of those "slaves" you talk about, and so you are no better that the "psychopaths" you keep talking about, as, like them, you are living thanks to the work of others.

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And if I am correct, and the evidence surely suggests this, that I am targeted, and there are Those who actively seek My failure, then all the trying in the world is pointless.
Don't delude yourself like that, you are just another nobody like all of us, you are not special. At least not in that way.

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I do what I must to survive and seek co-creators.
"Co-creators"? You haven't created a thing, you don't even have a plan, you only have a dream. You might as well say that Aladdin's lamp would solve all our problems.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 07:28:05 AM by Amaterasu »

Offline Amaterasu

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Re: Tickling the Messenger
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2017, 12:43:38 PM »

Pure selfishness is not a rational system.

LOL!  I have news for You.  NO ONE does ANYTHING but for Selfish reasons.  It may be because They feel good having helped anOther.  But it is ALWAYS a Selfish motivation.
 
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I'm sorry. The hippies didn't accomplish much more than reproduction and the destruction of a society that had been running fairly well.

What has hippies got to do with robots filling in where not enough People WANT to do a necessary job?  And if You think society was "running fairly well..."  With poverty, oppression, wage/debt slavery, intrusion, and profiteering...  Wow.
 
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I believe you are smoking, heavily, something other than Marlboros.

Nope.  I cannot afford My medicine.

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The internet is a free-for-all. All information must be thoroughly vetted before it can be trusted.

So, We are responsible for vetting Our information.  And You are comparing a web that has profit and power motives - where lies are protected - with what the web would be without such.  AnyOne found willfully putting out falsities would lose greatly in social currency.  No longer would They be trusted.  No longer would They have appreciation.  No longer would They have respect or be taken seriously.

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Unfortunately, the same is now true for the US educational system. It has been infiltrated by political lunatics who want, not to teach the truth, but to indoctrinate into leftist ideologies and historic revisionism.

It was started for that purpose from the beginning.  A short vid:



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This is an incredibly interesting, and just plain incredible, paragraph.

1. Drop some zeroes and I will concede you have honestly tried to get a job. Have you flipped burgers for fatties at McDonald's? They are always hiring.

Why lie?  I have indeed applied to over 100,000 jobs.  And I cannot stand more than 1/2 hour without pain and risking not being able to stand the following day.  Let Me tell You about the time I covered for My ex on christmas eve.  He was a dishwasher, and was very depressed that Our daughter was not with Us (She was legally kidnapped by My sister), and said He wasn't going in to work.  I knew He would get past the bump and that He would regret that choice, so I chose to fill in.

I walked the 20 minutes to the restaurant.  I worked My butt off for 8 hours.  The owner was very impressed and told Me so, saying He would hire Me anytime.  But I knew that would not happen.  I was in extreme agony.  I walked home, and it took Me almost an hour, collapsing as soon as I made it into the apartment.  My ex helped Me to bed.

The next morning, every joint in My body (except My spine, which, thankfully, is not affected by My condition) was swollen, stiff, pink, hot to the touch, and excruciating.  I could not stand.  I could not even crawl.  I very painfully scooted on My belly with My elbows to get to the bathroom (getting up onto the commode was a severe challenge in and of itself).

It took Me 2 days to be able to stand at all, and over a week before I could move My normal slow pace.

Sure, I could flip burgers maybe twice a month, but then would require the rest of the time to recuperate.

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If your answer is no, then you haven't tried hard enough.

My answer is "No," but now You know why.  I DID apply for a chicken plucker job - going homeless makes One desperate - and I probably could not have done that job.  I was 50 at the time and a 24 year old got the job.  Imagine that!

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2. Nice try. "Co-creators" is a euphemism for your economic victims. You confess this with your statement that they'd have a home and internet anyway. So, why not use them to meet your selfish needs in the process, right?

WTF?  Not at all!  They care about Me and I Them.  Though We ALL are doing this for Selfish reasons, They because it makes Them feel good to help Me, and Me because I appreciate Their offer - I feel good - still, "victims" is the very WRONG word to use.  And the "co-creator" term was NOT relative to Them.  It was relative to My work online. 
 
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See my reply regarding hippies.

I did.  It's irrelevant.
 
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What statement don't you understand? You must have an idea, as you've used the word "suggestion".

You said:  "We've come full circle, haven't we? We've just become the slaves, and the corpses, of our own flawed ideology."

No, I DON'T have a clue what You were on about with that.

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I do know what you mean, and I also recognize your lame obfuscation.

No lame obfuscation.  I truly do not have a clue about Your statement there.

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You aren't. You are relying on the good will of people you know, which is a parasitic relationship.

par·a·site
[ˈperəˌsīt]
NOUN

an organism that lives in or on another organism (its host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the host's expense.

a person who habitually relies on or exploits others and gives nothing in return...


... but philosophical wind.

"Out, damned spot!"

I can hear you licking your lips. Who'd have known your friends had so much blood in them.

Yes, yes.  Out damned spot.  I do NOT "habitually" do this.  Whether You want to believe it or not, until I became disabled, I worked My butt off, earning accolades such as Employee of the Year.  Then I was laid off - likely because I was having so much difficulty meeting deadlines, so I was the choice.  I was going to live under a bridge in Georgia, and friends reached out.  So, off with You, spot.  Go antagonize someOne else.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 07:28:20 AM by Amaterasu »
"If the universe is made of mostly Dark Energy...can We use it to run Our cars?"

"If You want peace, take the profit out of war."

Offline Irene

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Re: Tickling the Messenger
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2017, 01:23:28 PM »
Do you see how you make excuses for everything? People who make excuses don't succeed.

I am able to use my brother as an example of someone who made no excuses, succeeded, then died.

In the late 80's, he badly injured his back. Two surgeries and that damned Vicodin. Still, he was in constant pain. He became a Vicodin addict. He had to change professions, so he went back to school and came out a civil engineer, which can be a physical job.

Despite his addiction and his pain, he gutted out a 40-hour week with a city government for a couple of decades. Early into his second career, he learned he was so tired because his heart was shot. He was in his 30's and carrying our maternal heart. Everyone on my mother's side dies young due to heart failure. My uncle went at 48. My brother had several heart attacks and surgeries. Still, he returned to work full-time.

In the early 2000's, his heart really started to fail, so his city gave him a desk job where he could fall asleep now and then and there would be no issues. He had an office of his own where an unexpected snooze at his desk, due to his heart failure, would not be noticed by citizens and other employees.

At the end of 2010, he was laid off permanently due to cutbacks. He was incredibly upset that he lost his job. I finally got him to apply for disability. The Feds fought it until, finally, in October they granted disability.

A month later he was dead. He was 53.

His entire city showed up at the visitation. His coffin was buried in flowers. He was well-respected as a hard worker despite being severely ill for years.

He could have quit life early on and many times, but he didn't. Every time he got knocked down, no matter how hard it was, he got back up and pressed ahead. He pressed ahead until the economy took his job from him.

His personnel manager actually called me, probably against the law, and was practically in tears realizing what losing his job had done to him. She knew he would not be able to get another job due to his falling asleep so much.

Now, have you fought, Amy? Have you really exhausted all your options? Or are you just along for the ride?
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 07:28:40 AM by Amaterasu »
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Offline petrus4

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Re: Tickling the Messenger
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2017, 03:30:57 AM »
You don't know how good you have it. America isn't perfect, but it's 110-f***ing-percent better than most countries on this dirtball.

This argument doesn't have quite the level of persuasive power that it used to, Irene.  We're not in the 50s any more.  America has lost virtually all of its' manufacturing infrastructure, and while plenty of tax money is still being paid, north of 40% of that goes straight to the military.  There are whole towns within rural America that are abandoned and falling apart, at this point.  Most of the videos I've watched on YouTube recently, have focused on the amount of the American interior, that now looks a lot like the Chernobyl exclusion zone; and yes, I'm serious.  If you don't believe me, go to Detroit.  You also have the highest prison population on the planet.

I can very safely say that America post probably 1990 is not a country that I would want to live in; and truthfully, I'm getting very tired of 21st century Western modernity in general.  I don't see Five Eyes society as Disneyland; I don't have the money to spend on mobile phones and most of the other forms of consumer crap, and I genuinely wouldn't want it even if I did.  The one thing I've noticed is that the more technology we get, the more angry, miserable, and distanced from each other we all become.

I don't want poorly built homes that can only be bought on credit anyway, and can be stolen from me at any time.  I don't want genetically modified non-food.  I don't want artificial heating based on non-renewable forms of fuel, the use of which is wrecking the environment.  I don't want surveillance technology which basically turns us all into slaves, and is destroying our humanity one inch at a time.  I don't want to live among soulless people who are utterly devoid of integrity, and who only care about whichever latest piece of commercialistic, corporate-produced "media" crap has come out, so that they can talk about it with their equally soulless friends.  I especially do not want a society which is organised, governed, and run by literal child-raping psychopaths.

Give me an open fire, real, nourishing food, somewhere I can stay dry, some weed, and the occasional company of people I love, and I am happy.  I don't need or want the rest of this poop, and I spend most of my time honestly and passionately wishing that it did not exist.  It serves no positive purpose.

Any argument you might make about how I'm supposedly safer from violence in this society will also be rejected; not only because I have lived among dangerous civilians before, but because I hear about police killing people now on almost a constant basis.  There have been times in my life where I would have honestly preferred to be in Somalia; because at least there if I get attacked, I can shoot back.  Where I'm living, the cops won't let you do that.  I am someone who truly does not want police protection, and who is not grateful for it, because I have seen with my own eyes that it does not work.

Modern Western society is not Utopia.  It is not really defensible at all.  It is a polluted, technocratic, authoritarian nightmare; and nobody I know is truly happy in it.  It isn't fascist in the sense that there are open rallies in the streets, or the blatant operation of concentration camps, no; in the last seventy years, they've got a lot better at it than that.  Go and look up the Bill of Rights though, and then compare that with the number of those supposed rights you can still exercise these days without being locked up.  Freedom of assembly is gone virtually everywhere I know of; freedom from searches and seizures also is.  Freedom of speech largely doesn't exist, and the Marxist frigging Millennials have been brainwashed to view that as a good thing.  Anyone who complains about that now gets labelled a fascist, and the assumption is made that the only reason why anyone might care about free speech, is so that they can supposedly use that as an excuse to be a white supremacist in public.

I know you're a person with basically decent intentions, Irene; and maybe you even need to tell yourself propaganda in order to keep doing your job.  I do not, however, have any illusions about this being anything close to the world that my grandfather fought for.  I know very well that it's not.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 07:28:57 AM by Amaterasu »
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Offline zorgon

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Re: Tickling the Messenger
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2017, 03:51:28 AM »
The one thing I've noticed is that the more technology we get, the more angry, miserable, and distanced from each other we all become.

You think its bad now? Wait till the Robots take over everything  No one will have a job because the robots will build themselves ;p

Not that long ago you went to a grocery store and chatted with a pleasant cashier... today you curse at a self checkout machine that is messing up your order and don't dare take an item off the scale before you pay

 ::)

LOL who dragged you out of the woods?

 :P
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 07:29:13 AM by Amaterasu »

Offline petrus4

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Re: Tickling the Messenger
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2017, 03:59:06 AM »
What Amy proposes is a society where everyone is equal, lives in equally nice homes, drives equally nice cars, and does equal amounts of effort to further society..its actually a wonderful idea she has, it just cant work today due to the fact that human nature is to exceed or better itself through the toil of others.

Most of the people I've seen, have been taught to be morbidly terrified of anonymity.  The idea is that you must, at all costs, establish yourself as someone who is different and special from everyone else, because supposedly to not do that is a fate worse than death.

That is the fundamental paradigm break between Socialism and Capitalism.  I only hear Socialists talking about maintaining a relatively minimal baseline level of human survival.  Capitalism, on the other hand, is about getting as much as you possibly can, in order to use that as a means of demonstrating your alleged superiority to others.

I am not a Socialist, because Socialism is fundamentally and unavoidably collective in nature; and if there is one thing that my life experience has overwhelmingly taught me, it is that human group dynamics are inevitably and unavoidably pathological, at least long term; and that collectives of any kind are not to be trusted.  I am never safer than when I am alone.

I am not a Capitalist either, however, because I don't believe in becoming a billionaire as a justification for elitism.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 07:29:39 AM by Amaterasu »
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Offline petrus4

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Re: Tickling the Messenger
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2017, 04:00:48 AM »
LOL who dragged you out of the woods?

I came back to civilisation for my grandmother's 100th birthday.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 07:29:56 AM by Amaterasu »
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Offline The Seeker

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Re: Tickling the Messenger
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2017, 04:04:10 AM »
I came back to civilisation for my grandmother's 100th birthday.
Awesome  8)
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 07:30:13 AM by Amaterasu »
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Offline ArMaP

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Re: Tickling the Messenger
« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2017, 05:35:11 AM »
One thing I learned after almost 6 years on this forum and exactly 13 years on ATS is that politics discussions between Europeans and Americans don't work, as both sides use different definitions for basic political topics, like "socialism". Those differences result in both sides keeping to their own ideas, even in situations where both have mostly the same thoughts, so these discussions get hotter and hotter and, many times, result in people saying things that go over what is acceptable, with bad results.

So, my suggestion, don't get too upset in political discussions, it's not worth it, division is what makes the same people keep the power over the common person.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 07:30:30 AM by Amaterasu »

Offline ArMaP

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Re: Tickling the Messenger
« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2017, 07:02:56 AM »
We Each take responsibility for Self.  And solving problems Ethically as they arise.
Judging by this new thread, you are not solving your problems ethically.

Splitting the threads was the right choice, but the title you chose shows that you are using your power in this sub-forum, in which you are moderator, in the same way the "psychopaths" you keep talking about do.

If you read the posts without the bias of being one of the sides of the discussion, you will see that it was not the messenger that was being attacked, Irene's post was an answer to your opinion, and we all have the right to an opinion and to express it, as long as we keep insults out.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 07:30:47 AM by Amaterasu »

 


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