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Author Topic: How far is too far for free speech?  (Read 6985 times)

Offline Pimander

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Re: How far is too far for free speech?
« Reply #45 on: October 21, 2014, 06:09:54 pm »
Tells me you misspelled your name 

 ::)
Appropriately enough there are three ways to spell it. :)

Pymander, Pimander. Poimandre..... at least three.  It isn't English so its down to translation.

Quote
Poimandres (Greek: ??????????; also known as Poemandres, Poemander or Pimander) is a chapter in the Corpus Hermeticum.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poimandres

Quote
To quote (John Everard translation):

    Then said I, "Who art Thou?"
    "I am," quoth he, "Poemander, the mind of the Great Lord, the most Mighty and absolute Emperor: I know what thou wouldest have, and I am always present with thee."

And in the G.R.S. Mead translation:

    And I do say: Who art thou?
    He saith: I am Man-Shepherd [??????????], Mind of all-masterhood; I know what thou desirest and I’m with thee everywhere.

And in the translation by Salaman, Van Oyen and Wharton:[3]

    "Who are you?" said I.
    He said, "I am Poimandres the Nous of the Supreme. I know what you wish and I am with you everywhere."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poimandres

The Everard translation of that line is most accurate from the point of view of initiation - in  the opinion of someone with the nous. ;D

Offline Wrabbit2000

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Re: How far is too far for free speech?
« Reply #46 on: October 21, 2014, 06:16:35 pm »

There are other experiments  using electric shock buzzers... we should post those results here too. The caveman within us is not that deeply buried


Now that you mention it, I happen to have that material handy from something unrelated here recently. It was called the Milgram Experiment. The details and results are far worse than the Stanford Prison Experiment. No one died at Stanford. A good many people died at Yale......or at least, they sure did to the certain knowledge of the person who physically engaged the machine that "killed them".

Following World War II, folks were confused a bit, to say the least. Were the Germans THAT different? What of the myriad of people, many lesser players, who cited 'following orders' as their reason for conduct? Not all who were tried there, died there. In fact, many got years of imprisonment to then essentially go on with life afterward. Many of those used that very reasoning for why they didn't do anything to stop what they were a part of.

Some suggested Germans were predisposed to obedience under authority somehow. (recall, Eugenics had been a hot concept in the US within just a short time prior to World War II starting. All kinds of wacky beliefs back then) Others just wondered, period. Hence, the need to test a theory. Could it be, the Germans were special to have been a part of all that....or could it be anyone could have done the same things?  Dr. Stanley Milgram set out to find out....and he did. Oh...lord, did he ever find out.

[youtube]yr5cjyokVUs[/youtube]

The above is a quick video of the experiment. Below are the written results he found. As the video shows, it was a blind experiment for one person involved. The button pusher believed it was entirely real. This is how they reacted.

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65% (two-thirds) of participants (i.e. teachers) continued to the highest level of 450 volts. All the participants continued to 300 volts.

Milgram did more than one experiment – he carried out 18 variations of his study.  All he did was alter the situation (IV) to see how this affected obedience (DV).


65% of them wantonly "murdered" another human being after a period of torture, on nothing but the perceived authority of another and the belief of it being an experiment to direct liability back to.

Milgram's overall conclusions?

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Milgram summed up in the article “The Perils of Obedience” (Milgram 1974), writing:

“The legal and philosophic aspects of obedience are of enormous import, but they say very little about how most people behave in concrete situations.  I set up a simple experiment at Yale University to test how much pain an ordinary citizen would inflict on another person simply because he was ordered to by an experimental scientist. Stark authority was pitted against the subjects’ [participants’] strongest moral imperatives against hurting others, and, with the subjects’ [participants’] ears ringing with the screams of the victims, authority won more often than not. The extreme willingness of adults to go to almost any lengths on the command of an authority constitutes the chief finding of the study and the fact most urgently demanding explanation.”
Source

That experiment has also been re-run at different times and in different ways since. This is a more modern version having been done in somewhat less controlled conditions, but looks just as ugly to me.

Discovery Channel Curiosity Experiment

Given the guy's laughter in that one by what I'd take a wild guess at being growing fear as he realizes what he's doing, yet....keeps doing at higher levels? I'm going to make a prediction that finding the rest of that episode will show a similar outcome to what Milgram documented at Yale.

We may hate what these experiments show about human nature, but they are what they are and it is what it is. The trick, IMO, is realizing and accepting that to do the right thing anyway, even when if seems wrong in the moment. Just my two carrots on that.

Offline zorgon

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Re: How far is too far for free speech?
« Reply #47 on: October 21, 2014, 06:21:47 pm »
Divine Pymander

Divine Pymander of Hermes Trismegistus, or Hermes Mercurius Trismegistus: His Divine Pymander; also, The Asiatic Mystery, The Smaragdine Table and the Song of Brahm, edited by Paschal Beverly Randolph, the Yogi Publication Society hardcover reprint from the 1871 Rosicrucian Publishing Company edition, is part of the collection at the Reading Room.


Offline Pimander

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Re: How far is too far for free speech?
« Reply #48 on: October 21, 2014, 06:46:14 pm »
Yes, the Milgram experiment is a bit of an eye opener.  Petrus take note.  I am fairly sure that I would have refused but it definitely changes the way we see people and is an interesting guide regarding what level of trust to have in humans generally.

Zorgon, here are a lot of interesting writings here too: http://gnosis.org/welcome.html

Obviously, us hard headed science types don't read that stuff much but just in case anyone else is interested.....  ;)

 


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