Pegasus Research Consortium

General Category => General Discussion Area => Topic started by: astr0144 on December 25, 2017, 06:03:01 am

Title: Has any Rockets really been to the Moon ?
Post by: astr0144 on December 25, 2017, 06:03:01 am
Has any Rockets really been to the Moon ?

Many a suggestion is that Nasa and the Apollo manned Flights could not go to the moon because of the radiation effects of the Van allen belt...

If that was so.... Its also been suggested because the Saturn V Rockets could not hold enough fuel to get there and back...

and if they were even able to carry as much fuel as we see in a FULL Apollo rocket BEFORE it later splits into parts as the mission occurs where we see sections being disconnected say for eg after the initial stages of the boost to get up into space...where I suspect thats the most fuel carried on the rocket..

What happens once it gets into space and how much would the remaining rocket stages be able to carry and also expected to use as it continued its suggested mission to the moon. ?

As far as I am aware it was not able to use any other fuel or power method to operate the remaining rocket sections..
like solar or nuclear power souces...

SO ... How far could it have gone .. I wonder ? or how much more fuel may it have needed to hav reached the moon.

IF those apollo missions did not reach the moon....

then what about the missions where we see all the close ups of the moon that showed al the craters in great detail as it circulated around the moon ?

Did them missins really occur ? and did they carry enough fuel ?  I assume that were smaller or of less weight..

What did it take for them to get to the moon   and did the radiation effect the electronics ?

Size and weight of a Rocket would vary such things..

or are those missions also faked somehow ???

Any thoughts !


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The Saturn V remains the tallest, heaviest, and most powerful (highest total impulse) rocket ever brought to operational status, and holds records for the heaviest payload launched and largest payload capacity to low Earth orbit (LEO) of 140,000 kg (310,000 lb), which included the third stage and unburned propellant needed to send the Apollo Command/Service Module and Lunar Module to the Moon.[5][6]

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The Saturn V consisted of three stages—the S-IC first stage, S-II second stage and the S-IVB third stage—and the instrument unit. All three stages used liquid oxygen (LOX) as an oxidizer. The first stage used RP-1 for fuel, while the second and third stages used liquid hydrogen (LH2). The upper stages also used small solid-fueled ullage motors that helped to separate the stages during the launch, and to ensure that the liquid propellants were in a proper position to be drawn into the pumps.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_V
Title: Re: Has any Rockets really been to the Moon ?
Post by: ArMaP on December 25, 2017, 12:25:03 pm
First of all, the US was not the only country to reach the Moon, although it was the only country that had manned missions reaching the Moon (according to the official story, obviously ;) ), so if the USSR was able to send probes (and, in latter missions, return samples of Moon soil), why wouldn't the US be able to send men, just from a technological point of view?
More recently, Japan, India, China and the European Space Agency have sent probes (orbital and landing) to the Moon.

The biggest amount of energy is needed to leave the Earth's surface, as at that point gravity is much stronger, the farther away from Earth the less energy needed. Once in space, with less gravity and without atmosphere drag, they spend much less fuel, that's why satellites can stay in orbit for many years with just short bursts from the engines.

The Van Allen radiation belts are exactly that, belts, they do not cover the whole Earth, so the Apollo missions didn't cross the inner, stronger, belt. They crossed the outer belt, but they didn't remain there for a long time, and, as you probably know, radiation is cumulative, so a short presence in a relatively high radiation area is not as bad as it sounds. Most of the radiation they got during the Apollo missions came from the Sun or cosmic radiation. As for the electronics, the problem only exists with today's electronics, that use so little energy and are so small that the energy and size of a charged particle may be enough to affect a whole circuit.
Title: Re: Has any Rockets really been to the Moon ?
Post by: 1paintertoo on October 05, 2018, 10:22:32 am
Are the Van Allen belts a barrier to spaceflight? I've heard Jim Lear clearly state, adamantly, on several occasions, that no way could an astronaut survive the levels of radiation present in the belts to travel to the moon.

At odds with this opinion is, of course, NASA, which has produced a brief paper on the 'math' that proves the ability for an astronaut to survive this radiation. Here's a link to the paper:

https://spacemath.gsfc.nasa.gov/weekly/3Page7.pdf

I don't have the physics knowledge to determine if the NASA math is accurate; does anybody on the forum or is there an external link to review? Has Jim Lear (or anyone else on the forum) provided the math that proves an astronaut's inability to survive the radiation if he/she were to travel through the belts? I am grateful that Jim Lear has generously presented exciting information over the years on a number of topics, of which, many I like to ponder. So my line of questioning here is certainly not meant to be an affront to Jim Lear.
 
JAXA is also exploring the energization and radiation in geospace with their ARASE project:

http://global.jaxa.jp/projects/sat/erg/
Title: Re: Has any Rockets really been to the Moon ?
Post by: ArMaP on October 05, 2018, 02:19:09 pm
Are the Van Allen belts a barrier to spaceflight? I've heard Jim Lear clearly state, adamantly, on several occasions, that no way could an astronaut survive the levels of radiation present in the belts to travel to the moon.
I suppose you mean John Lear, right? He says many things.  :P

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At odds with this opinion is, of course, NASA, which has produced a brief paper on the 'math' that proves the ability for an astronaut to survive this radiation. Here's a link to the paper:

https://spacemath.gsfc.nasa.gov/weekly/3Page7.pdf
NASA has been studying the radiation belts for 60 years, I suppose they know a little about them.

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I don't have the physics knowledge to determine if the NASA math is accurate; does anybody on the forum or is there an external link to review?
From what I have seen, those numbers are right, as one thing with radiation is that its effects are cumulative, so spending 10 hours at a specific radiation level is worse than spending 5 hours, so seeing that it doesn't take that long to cross the belts (specially if they choose a path that goes through the area where the inner belt almost doesn't exist) the astronauts would not subjected to a high radiation dose.

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Has Jim Lear (or anyone else on the forum) provided the math that proves an astronaut's inability to survive the radiation if he/she were to travel through the belts?
I never saw any.
Title: Re: Has any Rockets really been to the Moon ?
Post by: Ellirium113 on October 05, 2018, 04:38:58 pm
I would like to know how many astronauts ever ended up with lung cancer. The cosmic radiation wouldn't be a huge issue unless there was some massive solar flare. The dosage would have to be quite high which would have meant anyone handling the orbiter on recovery would be in hazmat suits as the entire thing would be radioactive. The DUST from the moon on the other hand would be in the cabin with them for the ride home. If there was truly no atmosphere on the moon the dust would all be radioactive as well and while there may be dust filtration in the orbiter it wouldn't scrub it all out as it is in their suits and constantly being kicked up. If a good portion of the astronauts developed health issues I think believing the moon landings happened would have a lot more traction.
Title: Re: Has any Rockets really been to the Moon ?
Post by: 1paintertoo on October 05, 2018, 05:34:30 pm
Thank you for your reply ArMaP. And yes...I most certainly meant JOHN Lear in my references. My apologies to John Lear.

If NASA's math is correct and the Van Allen radiation belts are traversable, but with some penalty to the astronauts due to accumulated exposure, then, perhaps, the belts still may pose a type of barrier, as John Lear has posited, acting as a form of restriction in passage.

It's an intriguing thought that the belts may have been created to serve as a 'boundary', of sorts, to humankind. Dr. Joseph P. Farrell has spoken of the possible existence of 'Treaty of Versailles-like' boundaries (as were imposed on Germany after WWI) to limit humankind in it's exploration of space.
Title: Re: Has any Rockets really been to the Moon ?
Post by: fansongecho on October 06, 2018, 12:58:48 am

At 3mins and 30's, this NASA Engineer makes a interesting statement about the Van Allen belts -  ::)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4O5dPsu66Kw

https://www.linkedin.com/in/kelly-smith-36097bb

https://thelightoftheroad.com/tag/kelly-smith/

Cheers!  :)

Fansongecho   8)
Title: Re: Has any Rockets really been to the Moon ?
Post by: ArMaP on October 06, 2018, 02:48:10 am
The DUST from the moon on the other hand would be in the cabin with them for the ride home. If there was truly no atmosphere on the moon the dust would all be radioactive as well and while there may be dust filtration in the orbiter it wouldn't scrub it all out as it is in their suits and constantly being kicked up.
Why? ???
Title: Re: Has any Rockets really been to the Moon ?
Post by: ArMaP on October 06, 2018, 02:54:07 am
It's an intriguing thought that the belts may have been created to serve as a 'boundary', of sorts, to humankind. Dr. Joseph P. Farrell has spoken of the possible existence of 'Treaty of Versailles-like' boundaries (as were imposed on Germany after WWI) to limit humankind in it's exploration of space.
What's the use of a "boundary" that is easy to cross and that is even possible to go around?
Title: Re: Has any Rockets really been to the Moon ?
Post by: ArMaP on October 06, 2018, 03:15:54 am
At 3mins and 30's, this NASA Engineer makes a interesting statement about the Van Allen belts -  ::)
If you want the whole situation then start at the 3 minutes mark, so you can get the right context.

This is what he says:
Quote
As we get further away from Earth, we'll pass through the Van Allen belts, an area of dangerous radiation. Radiation like this can harm the guiding systems, on board computers and other electronics on Orion. Naturally, we have to pass this dangerous zone twice, once up and once back. But Orion has protection, shielding will be put to the test, as the vehicle cuts through the waves of radiation, sensors aboard will record radiation levels for scientists to study. We must solve these challenges before we send people through this region of space.

What he is talking about is the danger to the electronics, as today's electronics are much more sensitive to radiation than old electronics, their small size and power consumption make them very sensitive to radiation, that's why electronics for space missions, even when based on consumer products, must be "radiation hardened", so they be less likely to be affected by radiation.

Even electronics for aeroplanes must be better protected than normal consumer electronics, as they are more affected by cosmic radiation than the electronics that never leave the ground.

PS: this video is a great example of what I don't like in NASA, that stupid way of presenting things to common people as if this was filmed in real time while they are trying to solve the problem, instead of sticking to science. This "History Channel" type of presentation of scientific information is, to me, the worst thing they can do to science, as it makes it look like the scientist and technicians do not know what they are doing. That's why I always avoid the "public relations" side of NASA, with those sites where they even had fake photos.

If we want scientific facts we should look at the science related side of NASA.
Title: Re: Has any Rockets really been to the Moon ?
Post by: Ellirium113 on October 06, 2018, 07:25:16 am
Why? ???

Are you suggesting the atomosphere would play no part in the filtration of any of the cosmic rays? I am suspecting it would to some degree.
Title: Re: Has any Rockets really been to the Moon ?
Post by: ArMaP on October 06, 2018, 08:32:16 am
Are you suggesting the atomosphere would play no part in the filtration of any of the cosmic rays? I am suspecting it would to some degree.
How can I be suggesting any thing just by asking "why"?

I only wanted to know why do you think that would happen.
Title: Re: Has any Rockets really been to the Moon ?
Post by: 1paintertoo on October 06, 2018, 08:42:23 am
What's the use of a "boundary" that is easy to cross and that is even possible to go around?

Assuming the NASA math is correct, then, perhaps, and in the spirit of speculation, the radiation belts may serve as only a warning; much like a road sign stating "DANGER - FALLING ROCKS AHEAD".

I'm not sure how 'easy' the belts are to cross. The NASA engineer in the video clip stated "we have to pass this dangerous zone twice, once up and once back. But Orion has protection, shielding will be put to the test, as the vehicle cuts through the waves of radiation, sensors aboard will record radiation levels for scientists to study. We must solve these challenges before we send people through this region of space."
Title: Re: Has any Rockets really been to the Moon ?
Post by: ArMaP on October 06, 2018, 09:07:21 am
I'm not sure how 'easy' the belts are to cross. The NASA engineer in the video clip stated "we have to pass this dangerous zone twice, once up and once back. But Orion has protection, shielding will be put to the test, as the vehicle cuts through the waves of radiation, sensors aboard will record radiation levels for scientists to study. We must solve these challenges before we send people through this region of space."
Quoting only that part makes it sound different from what he is really saying, that the radiation is dangerous to unprotected modern electronics. From an electronics point of view, it was easier to cross the Van Allen belts in the 1960s than today, as the electronics of that time were much more resistant to radiation effects than today's much smaller (around 1000 times smaller) and energy efficient electronics.

Also, they prefer to cross the belts instead of going around them to save fuel, as it's possible to avoid them.
Title: Re: Has any Rockets really been to the Moon ?
Post by: fansongecho on October 06, 2018, 09:17:50 am

ArMaP, you know that I dont believe we ever passed through the Van Allen belts with the technology from the 60's - we have had a few conversations about this in the past as I recall.

RE NASA creating video's like this, I cant help them if they want to create infomercials for their space programs, bring them on I say, but the guy states what he states about working out how to get people through the belts safely, I didnt make that up, Kelly Smith states it on the video, I really do hope the Orion Program works and they can get the data on what levels of radiation and types of radiation are circulating in the VA Belts and share that data with the rest of the world - until I see that data and proof positive, when they do send someone poor sucker through the belts (hopefully they dont get fried and do survive the trip) then I will be happy.

I understand that one of the private companies is planning a manned mission to the moon in the mid 2020's,

I will try and dig that link out -
https://www.space.com/18800-golden-spike-private-moon-company.html 

India announced a plan as well - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Human_Spaceflight_Programme

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/4788143/India-to-spend-1.7bn-sending-man-to-the-moon.html

but ..  back peddled http://aviationweek.com/space/india-backpedals-manned-moon-mission

Would you like to make a small wager ArMaP with me, I say that there wont be a succesfull manned mission to the Moon in the next 20 years, I am 56 and in pretty good health so i think I can honour the wager if it should occur buddy, the loser sends the winner a chocolate or sweet confectionary of their choice OR alcohol if you do partake of this ArMaP ??

What do you reckon bud??  are you game ??  :)


Cheers!

Fansongecho  8)
Title: Re: Has any Rockets really been to the Moon ?
Post by: 1paintertoo on October 06, 2018, 10:19:48 am
From an electronics point of view, it was easier to cross the Van Allen belts in the 1960s than today, as the electronics of that time were much more resistant to radiation effects than today's much smaller (around 1000 times smaller) and energy efficient electronics.

Agree. Besides NASA, unless Roscosmos, CNSA, ISRO and JAXA have all faked their respective space missions, then there is a mountain of evidence piling up that, at the very least, engineers have successfully solved the shielding of 'electronic components' from dangerous radiation on space craft.
Title: Re: Has any Rockets really been to the Moon ?
Post by: ArMaP on October 06, 2018, 12:10:36 pm
ArMaP, you know that I dont believe we ever passed through the Van Allen belts with the technology from the 60's - we have had a few conversations about this in the past as I recall.
I know, and I think there's nothing to prove that it was impossible. :)

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RE NASA creating video's like this, I cant help them if they want to create infomercials for their space programs, bring them on I say, but the guy states what he states about working out how to get people through the belts safely, I didnt make that up, Kelly Smith states it on the video
Yes, he does say that in the video, I just think it's not honest to split the part about the electronics from the "send people through" part, as he never says that people are at risk from the radiation, but it does say that the electronics are. When the electronics control everything aboard the craft it's obvious that the people on the ship are at risk of an out of control guiding system or on board computers.

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I really do hope the Orion Program works and they can get the data on what levels of radiation and types of radiation are circulating in the VA Belts and share that data with the rest of the world - until I see that data and proof positive, when they do send someone poor sucker through the belts (hopefully they dont get fried and do survive the trip) then I will be happy.
The Van Allen belts have been studied since 2012 by the Van Allen Probes, two identical satellites that are gathering data about the belts and that have found things that changed the scientist's views of the belts.

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Would you like to make a small wager ArMaP with me, I say that there wont be a succesfull manned mission to the Moon in the next 20 years, I am 56 and in pretty good health so i think I can honour the wager if it should occur buddy, the loser sends the winner a chocolate or sweet confectionary of their choice OR alcohol if you do partake of this ArMaP ??

What do you reckon bud??  are you game ??  :)
Although I'm one year younger I doubt I will live 20 years more, 50 years of asthma and asthma medications tend to affect the lungs and the heart, but I accept. :)
Title: Re: Has any Rockets really been to the Moon ?
Post by: fansongecho on October 06, 2018, 03:21:13 pm

Coolio ArMaP, but let's make it 15 years, I am sorry to hear about the Asthma, I know that is bad for those afflicted with the condition bud -

What is your preference ??  :) :) I love chocolate, and beer in equal proportions  ;) ;)

Peace out...

Fans'  8)
Title: Re: Has any Rockets really been to the Moon ?
Post by: ArMaP on October 06, 2018, 04:18:08 pm
Chocolate.  ;D

Edited to add that it should be sugar-free chocolate, as I am diabetic, but real chocolate is better. :)
Title: Re: Has any Rockets really been to the Moon ?
Post by: Sgt.Rocknroll on October 06, 2018, 05:55:49 pm
Has any Rockets really been to the Moon ?



If that was so.... Its also been suggested because the Saturn V Rockets could not hold enough fuel to get there and back...

and if they were even able to carry as much fuel as we see in a FULL Apollo rocket BEFORE it later splits into parts as the mission occurs where we see sections being disconnected say for eg after the initial stages of the boost to get up into space...where I suspect thats the most fuel carried on the rocket..

What happens once it gets into space and how much would the remaining rocket stages be able to carry and also expected to use as it continued its suggested mission to the moon. ?


You do realize that the ‘rocket’ portion was only use to get the CM & Lander into orbit? It wasn’t used to take them to the moon!
Title: Re: Has any Rockets really been to the Moon ?
Post by: fansongecho on October 07, 2018, 02:55:24 am

@ArMap, cool buddy, I am lucky that I can eat full fat dark chocolate  8)

I will pm you my address for your records  :)


Cheers!

Fans'  :)
Title: Re: Has any Rockets really been to the Moon ?
Post by: Canine on October 07, 2018, 04:29:44 am
painter,

here's a good technical video on the radiation by an geologist skeptical of apollo's claims:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzfL0QmnkuM

documents in the description at youtube
Title: Re: Has any Rockets really been to the Moon ?
Post by: thorfourwinds on October 12, 2018, 08:59:09 am
Greetings Jim Mar..er. 1paintertoo:

A pleasure to award you your first gold!

Did someone say 'chocolate?'

http://www.thelivingmoon.com/forum/index.php?topic=8583.msg117220#msg117220

Still in North Carolina at Ground Zero Florence.

We already have a team in Florida.

Love to all.
Thor
Title: Re: Has any Rockets really been to the Moon ?
Post by: petrus4 on October 13, 2018, 03:05:45 am
Agree. Besides NASA, unless Roscosmos, CNSA, ISRO and JAXA have all faked their respective space missions, then there is a mountain of evidence piling up that, at the very least, engineers have successfully solved the shielding of 'electronic components' from dangerous radiation on space craft.

Greetings 1paintertoo,
I think you will find that it is taken for granted among several posters here, that at least the American government (if not many others) has secret access to technologies which are anywhere between 25 and 100 years ahead of that which are publically known or available.  I am quite sure that very good radiation shielding would also have been discovered.