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Author Topic: The Ethical Planetarian Platform; Revision 002  (Read 40366 times)

Offline zorgon

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Re: The Ethical Planetarian Platform; Revision 002
« Reply #60 on: November 12, 2012, 01:09:12 pm »
How would we define 'reasonable force' when dealing with humans who would try to ruin the plan? Do we just banish them?
That could be the same as a death sentence..

That is a key point to TAP's three laws... just exactly what do you do with those who want no part of it?

'reasonable force' you say? So those who opposed your plan, a plan that claims to allow free will to reign supreme, will be force to think your way? Seems kinda counter productive in my opinion. I mean if your selling a plan that is supposed to give people freedom and in the same breath you say 'so long as you think our way'  I don't see a lot of success in that sales pitch

Banish you say? To where exactly? And if enough are banished from your  Utopia, would they not then be bitter and want revenge... and plot from outside?  Rome was destroyed by Barbarian hordes... The Phoenician Utopia was destroyed by Alexander and his looting murderous hordes who burned it to the ground just because..

So what then?  Will you eliminate them instead? Because if you don't your TAP will eventually be overrun by those you banished

You could banish them off world... but that would require spaceships, and once you have those, the 'colonists' (banished ones) could always return and drop a few space bombs into your Utopia. Australia was once one such colony for the banished :D (at least they never sought revenge :P ) But today there is no place on this planet that you could send the banished where they couldn't come back to mess up your plan

I suppose euthanasia is an option, but then you would be worse than the current PTB who haven't actually implemented THAT option yet
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 01:13:13 pm by zorgon »

Offline Amaterasu

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Re: The Ethical Planetarian Platform; Revision 002
« Reply #61 on: November 12, 2012, 01:36:52 pm »
Couple points....

Most people that hang out in forums and chat rooms are for the most part out of work and have nothing better to do :P Any real mover and shakers is too busy to come in here and share. I have written to several of them asking them to stop by and share and each one so far has written that they are too busy.

I myself can be here because the only work I have right now is what I can produce from home and that will soon need to take up more of my time before I run out of cash to pay the bills.

So spreading the word via the internet does work to a point, but it doesn't really reach those in position to make it happen

I have emailed MANY - Sir Richard Branson, senators and representatives, organization after organization, individuals, and on and on.  If I am not the only One...They may take notice.

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The other point is back to human nature.

People have a sheep mentality... or more correctly a herd mentality. As such the majority of people NEED a leader. No amount of trying to 'wake up the sheep' will work BECAUSE they LIKE being sheep.  I have seen this happen myself in our Medieval world. As long as the leader has a good working idea, you WILL have loyal willing 'serfs'

And in TAP, there will be the organizers - and the participants.  So?  I don't see how this is a problem.

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It is the same principal at work in cults and governments. People need a leader... they will ALWAYS seek a leader.  Now a leader can be benevolent or a tyrant... doesn't matter both work though the tyrants don't usually last as long.

Not entirely true - the People who want leaders want leaders.  The People who want to lead will seek followers.  The better Their ideas are, the more who will follow Them.  They will not be able to buy votes, or pay goons to strong-arm...  But the good ideas will gain traction and the followers will make the ideas reality, at the direction of the leader(s).

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This is not something that can be changed by any paradigm... it is the very nature of the beast... and those in power today, as well as all those dictators, clan chiefs, spiritual leaders, what have you,  KNOW the truth of this and use it to their advantage.

I never said it would be changed.  What WOULD be changed is that the MOTIVES will NOT include money or power over Others.  Motives will be Betterment.

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You can use this for TAP, but you will need to put something on the table that they can sink their teeth into.

Not sure what You mean here...

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Hitler got as far as he did because a) he had amazing powers of speech to sell his plan; b) he gave Germans that were out of work and starving jobs, the Volkswagon (people's car) and a speed limitless autobahn AND he gave them a target for their frustration. Though he was definitely not a nice guy :P as people discovered afterwards, he nevertheless knew the secret of Sheep :D

And TAP gives everyOne actual freedom...  No starvation, no poverty, no thirst, no exposure, no oppression, no wage/debt slavery, no WAR.  And no means for ill intent to spread widely.

So...  What more does One want?
"If the universe is made of mostly Dark Energy...can We use it to run Our cars?"

"If You want peace, take the profit out of war."

PLAYSWITHMACHINES

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Re: The Ethical Planetarian Platform; Revision 002
« Reply #62 on: November 13, 2012, 04:49:11 pm »
Quote
People have a sheep mentality... or more correctly a herd mentality. As such the majority of people NEED a leader. No amount of trying to 'wake up the sheep' will work BECAUSE they LIKE being sheep.  I have seen this happen myself in our Medieval world. As long as the leader has a good working idea, you WILL have loyal willing 'serfs'


I guess when they finally get fed up with being sheep, they will turn to someone to lead them, it's natural...
Maybe we are here to teach the leaders...?

(May as well be you, Z. No one else has the guts, i'm just a techno-junkie with an opinion ;) )

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This is not something that can be changed by any paradigm... it is the very nature of the beast... and those in power today, as well as all those dictators, clan chiefs, spiritual leaders, what have you,  KNOW the truth of this and use it to their advantage.


OK, but if we all know the truth, what then?
I have no problem with helping people through the quagmire of life, done it all the time.
As far as i see it, we have a solution here which is spiritual, technological, political, humanistic in it's approach.

Maybe we should draw up a Planetary Reform Council, invite everybody, & see what happens ::)

I'll be in the batcave, sniffing solder smoke (as is my bliss ;) )

Offline Amaterasu

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Re: The Ethical Planetarian Platform; Revision 002
« Reply #63 on: November 14, 2012, 07:25:39 am »
I'm in, Luke.
"If the universe is made of mostly Dark Energy...can We use it to run Our cars?"

"If You want peace, take the profit out of war."

Offline Pimander

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Re: The Ethical Planetarian Platform; Revision 002
« Reply #64 on: November 14, 2012, 09:23:03 am »
I would be interested.  However, it has to be democratic or I am out.

Fundamental principles in no particular order (everyone feel free to add to them):-

1.  Democracy

2.  Fairness/"equality"

3.  Environmentally aware.

4.  Gradual reform of economic system including the removal of the banking and unfair trading system.

5.  Removal of the right to own another persons home.

6.  Big business, infrastructure etc not privately owned - small business encouraged.

7.  A shortening of intellectual property rights duration, at least during transition.  this would allow research and publication to still be something that people can make a living from so as not to stifle innovation.  While the economy is still as it is, an immediate move to open source would bring lots of good work to a halt.


Similar to yours Amy, but with differences.  I am basically looking at a body capable of co-ordinating a transition as opposed to where we would like to end up.

« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 09:26:35 am by Pimander »

Offline Amaterasu

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Re: The Ethical Planetarian Platform; Revision 002
« Reply #65 on: November 14, 2012, 12:01:04 pm »
I would be interested.  However, it has to be democratic or I am out.

Fundamental principles in no particular order (everyone feel free to add to them):-

1.  Democracy

2.  Fairness/"equality"

3.  Environmentally aware.

4.  Gradual reform of economic system including the removal of the banking and unfair trading system.

5.  Removal of the right to own another persons home.

6.  Big business, infrastructure etc not privately owned - small business encouraged.

7.  A shortening of intellectual property rights duration, at least during transition.  this would allow research and publication to still be something that people can make a living from so as not to stifle innovation.  While the economy is still as it is, an immediate move to open source would bring lots of good work to a halt.


Similar to yours Amy, but with differences.  I am basically looking at a body capable of co-ordinating a transition as opposed to where we would like to end up.

Well...  Stigmergic governance via the web is about as democratic as it gets: http://www.thelivingmoon.com/forum/index.php?topic=2103.0

It is fully fair and equal.

The Ethical Planetarian Party Platform calls for organic, environmentally aware action - as seen in the OP here.

Adding free energy and robots WILL grdually eliminate the need for banking and eliminate unfair activities.

Home and land ownership will revert to those inhabiting the homes - plus new homes, no longer tied to a grid will become available, with likely many floating/flying in the air.  With no money, "ownership" becomes moot.

"Businesses" will change radically - less "businesses" and more problem-solving groups. 

Intellectual property will not need protecting - and no living per se will be made by anyOne.  Any who "steal" intellectual property will become pariah while the originator will enjoy postitive social currency.

Seems the difference is mainly in Your expectation of continued scarcity paradigm needs - but adding free energy and robots will ensure The Abundance Paradigm - which answers every point You have here very well.
"If the universe is made of mostly Dark Energy...can We use it to run Our cars?"

"If You want peace, take the profit out of war."

Offline Pimander

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Re: The Ethical Planetarian Platform; Revision 002
« Reply #66 on: November 14, 2012, 03:20:34 pm »
I do understand what you mean.  There is no point waiting or failing to start making changes now though.  We still have banks money and are tied to a grid.  In the mean time we need action or when the advances arrive the transition will take even longer.

Offline Amaterasu

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Re: The Ethical Planetarian Platform; Revision 002
« Reply #67 on: November 14, 2012, 04:17:25 pm »
Pim, I'm all for that, if You can get it going, but in the meantime, I spread the Paradigm.  Because after the initial step of spreading awareness is to have a plan.  Just saying, "We need to change this and that," will not direct the flow-change towards a specific outcome.  It will be diffuse, and when the bandaid has been placed on one symptom another issue will flare up.

The idea is to get rid of the entire system and run things differently.  So while We're all putting Our bandaids on the sores We see, spread awareness of a goal.

The system We have is the issue.  Not this symptom or that.
"If the universe is made of mostly Dark Energy...can We use it to run Our cars?"

"If You want peace, take the profit out of war."

PLAYSWITHMACHINES

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Re: The Ethical Planetarian Platform; Revision 002
« Reply #68 on: November 26, 2012, 05:14:06 pm »
Hi guys, sorry i'm late :)

Pim, i agree completely with your proposal, except for item 7 which should be scrapped.

We no longer have the luxury or the right to 'intellectual' property any more than we should have the right to own other people's homes.
OK housing will still be a big issue, but most people will be able to live at their workplace (or work at their living place) virtually rent-free, according to yet-to-be drafted TAP 'rules'
Rule is too strong a word, lets call it 'agreements reached in the new constitution of the planetary council' :P

But claiming ownership of an idea is counterproductive, all ideas should be freely shared, like Android, so that people can (freely, let's not forget that) copy, use, & even update their own software, but we could apply that philosophy to cars, washing machines, anything...
There are 10^6 ways to skin a cat, and people should at least all have access to the same info. This would mean Progress with a capital P.
I think intellectual rights should mean no more than honest acknoweledgement of the inventor.

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While the economy is still as it is, an immediate move to open source would bring lots of good work to a halt.
Why?
It would be stifling innovation.
 Person A invents a mousetrap, but sits on the patent until he can make & sell them. Meanwhile, person B gets fed up waiting for a solution, is fed up with the mice, and builds a mousetrap also.

B's mousetrap is perfect, it is simpler & more effective than A's.

B starts to make them for his neighbours, & also gets offers to help pay for them to be made.

A has lost out, by the time he gets his mousetrap on the market, it's already outdated & overpriced.

B is happy, he's not rich, but he has no more mouse problems, & has lots of work, & made a lot of freinds.

Quote
Similar to yours Amy, but with differences.  I am basically looking at a body capable of co-ordinating a transition as opposed to where we would like to end up.
Sounds cool 8)

Pimander, this sounds like you were cut out for this ;)
Count me in ;)



Offline Amaterasu

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Re: The Ethical Planetarian Platform; Revision 002
« Reply #69 on: November 26, 2012, 06:16:47 pm »
Patents are moot in TAP...  Why would One patent something?  Not protection of profits...  And by releasing the idea, One earns regard for what One has contributed.

There is no "planetary council" with governance being stigmergic and via the web.

But I suppose if We're talking interim...which I see as unnecessary.  Get the ideas to the tipping point, add free energy, fund retrofitting and new development, fund robots, and We will go into TAP.
"If the universe is made of mostly Dark Energy...can We use it to run Our cars?"

"If You want peace, take the profit out of war."

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Re: The Ethical Planetarian Platform; Revision 002
« Reply #70 on: November 27, 2012, 09:01:52 am »
I'd like to start a business called the Peoples Robot Company...
 8)

Offline Pimander

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Re: The Ethical Planetarian Platform; Revision 002
« Reply #71 on: November 27, 2012, 09:38:46 am »
But claiming ownership of an idea is counterproductive, all ideas should be freely shared, like Android, so that people can (freely, let's not forget that) copy, use, & even update their own software, but we could apply that philosophy to cars, washing machines, anything...
I agree in principle.

During a transitional phase though, development of technology that requires a big investment would stop if there was no way to recoup the investment.  New research live novel cancer therapies, transportation technologies and power sources can cost millions.  In a transition the facilities are still privately owned, unfortunately.  Therefore they would close if there was no incentive to research.

Ultimately I agree that intellectual property for most things is undesirable and is not in the interest of the whole but of a part of the whole.  But we are not in an abundance paradigm yet, in fact we are not even transitioning to one as the economic system is based on competition for limited resources rather than on sharing ones we have plenty of..

Offline Amaterasu

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Re: The Ethical Planetarian Platform; Revision 002
« Reply #72 on: November 27, 2012, 06:34:02 pm »
I'd like to start a business called the Peoples Robot Company...
 8)

Hey!  I like that!  I'd invest if I had more than good wishes to offer.
"If the universe is made of mostly Dark Energy...can We use it to run Our cars?"

"If You want peace, take the profit out of war."

PLAYSWITHMACHINES

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Re: The Ethical Planetarian Platform; Revision 002
« Reply #73 on: November 28, 2012, 10:51:34 am »
Agreed, Pim. I see your point.
We are still looking for a nice gadget that we could market for Pegasus...

I see robots built using 'artificial muscles' a kind of electrostatic drive system, which is already in use in some advanced machines today.
This would mean it would be dead easy to build a robot in human form, with human-like physiology. Easier than building one from scratch.
All we need is a compact yet powerful energy source.

OK that's all just tech problems. The real problem of getting through the transition is twofold; we must pursue the free energy & off-the-grid goals as much as we can, and at the same time inform people of why it is necessary.

Offline Amaterasu

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Re: The Ethical Planetarian Platform; Revision 002
« Reply #74 on: July 12, 2013, 02:44:00 pm »
Unapologetic bump.

[smile]
"If the universe is made of mostly Dark Energy...can We use it to run Our cars?"

"If You want peace, take the profit out of war."

 


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