Pegasus Research Consortium

The Living Moon => Thorfourwinds Section => The Truth Is Viral - Bob Powell => Topic started by: Bob Powell on November 15, 2012, 12:46:39 pm

Title: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: Bob Powell on November 15, 2012, 12:46:39 pm
SOURCE: www.bobpowell.blogspot.com (http://www.bobpowell.blogspot.com)

EDITOR'S NOTE: I had to change very little of the original Constitution. This post is an effort to show how the exact same conditions that existed before the first American Revolution exist once more. Once again, Tyranny reigns over these Sovereign States. Throughout this work are hyperlinks that support my contention that the Republic is dead, and we now live in a de facto dictatorship.

In addition I have never, and I will never, call for violent action against the government or any individual person. This is my plea to our elected representatives to do their job; and Restore the Republic!



[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XclKrZC4jok[/youtube]

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for a People to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with their current form of government, and to resume among the powers of the earth the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience have shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

Such has been the patient sufferance of these Sovereign States and the citizens thereof; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their current Systems of Government. The history of Barack Hussein Obama, the President of the United States, is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let facts be submitted to a candid world:

President Barack Hussein Obama has refused his assent to laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good, when he authorized the murders of Anwar al-Awlaki and Samir Kahn,  American citizens, and separately, al-Awlaki’s 16-year-old son Abdulrahman, none of whom were ever charged with a crime in a court of law; thereby nullifying the 5th Amendment which states that "NO PERSON shall be deprived of Life, Liberty, or Property… without Due Process of Law."

President Barack Hussein Obama has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them, by refusing to identify and deport illegal aliens, and then denying the Sovereign State of Arizona the right to defend its own borders.

In collusion with Treasonous Members of Congress, President Barack Hussein Obama has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

President Barack Hussein Obama has attacked elected representatives repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

President Barack Hussein Obama has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

President Barack Hussein Obama is trying to make the Supreme Court Of The United States dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and their relevance.

President Barack Hussein Obama has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

President Barack Hussein Obama is forming among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies of Private Mercenaries without the Consent of our legislatures.

President Barack Hussein Obama has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our Constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing or ignoring the free System of American Laws, establishing therein an Arbitrary government by Executive Order, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example, and fit instrument for, introducing the same absolute rule into these Individual Sovereign States:

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments, and ceding authority to offices funded by, and accountable to, the Federal Reserve.

For bypassing our own Legislatures, and declaring himself invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever, including our very right to Life, President Barack Hussein Obama has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against Us.

President Barack Hussein Obama has plundered our economy, ravaged our industry, and destroyed the lives of our people. During his first term in office he has carelessly spent as much money as every President that preceded him combined. With a National Debt topping 16 Trillion dollars Our Great Republic is teetering at the precipice of financial collapse due to his wanton disregard for the solvency of the Nation.

President Barack Hussein Obama is at this time forming large Armies of Mercenaries to complete the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

President Barack Hussein Obama has quashed all attempts at Justice aimed at a violent Black Nationalist organization known as the New Black Panthers who have intimidated voters at polling places, called for the Murders of white citizens, and have issued "Dead or Alive" rewards; felonies ignored by the Department of Justice at the behest of the President seeking to inflame racial tensions in the United States.

President Barack Hussein Obama, by power of Executive Order signed on March 16 2012, has re-instituted the abominable practice of Slavery in the United States; the wording in the Executive Order is plain for all to see: "to employ persons of outstanding experience and ability without compensation." (Sec. 502) Forced Labor without compensation is abhorrent to the sensibilities of the Citizens of these Sovereign States and will not be tolerated.

President Barack Hussein Obama has endeavored to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, and the Sovereign States of the Middle East, the merciless Savages of the Muslim Brotherhood and their military wing known as al-Qaeda, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

President Barack Hussein Obama has provided Material Support to the Enemies of the United States, namely the Terror organizations known as al-Qaeda and Hamas;  as well as providing weapons to Central American drug cartels, an act which has resulted in the murders of thousands of Mexican and American citizens, including members of the United States Law Enforcement community. These groups are designated as terrorist organizations by the U.S. State Department and any Material Support of them is a Felony for which others have been imprisoned.

President Barack Hussein Obama has directed the U.S. State Department, the U.S. Military, and the nation’s Covert intelligence agencies to train, supply with weapons, and provide air support for al-Qaeda Terrorists in Libya; a Felony. He directed U.S. Ambassador to Libya Christopher Stevens to arrange the transfer of advanced shoulder-fired missiles stolen by al-Qaeda from Libyan armories to affiliated al-Qaeda groups currently fighting against Syrian President Bashar al-Assad; a Felony.

President Barack Hussein Obama has proven himself utterly incompetent in his capacity as Commander in Chief of the United States Armed Forces. Having ignored pleas for help from Ambassador Stevens for months, he stood by and watched as our Consulate was overrun by the Merciless Savages of Ansar al-Shariah, ordering Assets in the vicinity to “Stand Down.” Then he relieved of their commands for disobeying orders, Flag and General Officers of the United States Military, who had attempted to save our Ambassador and the U.S. Citizens under his care.

For two weeks after the attack on the Sovereign Territory of the United States Consulate in Benghazi, President Barack Hussein Obama, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta, and their surrogates engaged in a pattern of deceit over the attack on the Consulate; lying to the American People about the events of September 11th 2012 and engaging in a cover up of monumental proportions. The Executive Branch of the government of the United States of America has lost all credibility in the eyes of the American People.

We, therefore, the People of the United States of America, call for the immediate impeachment of President Barack Hussein Obama for High Crimes and Misdemeanors against the People, including the crimes of Dereliction of Duty, Treason,and Murder.

We call on any of our Representatives in the House, and those in the Senate, any who still have an ounce of integrity, to uphold their oaths of office, and to support and defend the United States Constitution from ALL enemies, Foreign and Domestic, as they have sworn to do.

We call upon Patriots in the Armed Forces and Civil Authorities to refuse any Unlawful Order, including the forced disarmament of American Citizens, their forced detention without Due Process, their rendition to Foreign Shores, or their arrest on any Charge without a Warrant that has been signed by a Judge, and which has been issued upon probable cause.

We call upon ALL Americans to stand firm on the United States Constitution as it was written so long ago by Men who strained against the yoke of Tyranny. Natural Rights do not diminish over time, nor can they be legislated out of existence; they can only be forfeited willingly. We call upon ALL Americans to Honor the Sacred Blood which has been shed for the Liberty of ALL Americans, and hold fast to the rights which Nature and Nature's God has apportioned us.

We, therefore, the People of these United States of America, by Popular assent, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name and by Authority of the good People of these United States, solemnly publish and declare: That these United States are, and of Right ought to remain, Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the Federal Government in its current form, and that all political connection between them and the Obama Administration, is, and ought to be, totally dissolved; that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of  Almighty God, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our Sacred Honor. The time has come for the Will of the People to once again be heard, before the Tree of Liberty must be refreshed with the blood of Patriots and Tyrants.

So say we all.

Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: petrus4 on November 15, 2012, 01:09:48 pm
This won't happen.  Something that you perhaps do not understand, is that within the broader context, the entire reason why the subject of impeachment for Bill Clinton over the Monica Lewinsky scandal came up, was because Republicans were trying to cheapen the entire concept of impeachment to the point where it seemed worthless, by threatening to have Clinton impeached for something which was not a genuinely impeachable offense at all.

So the word impeachment, has now become associated in mainstream terms, with mental illness; the belief is that only some far right nut would react to anything a President might do, by talking about impeachment.

That is exactly what the Republicans were aiming for; and they have achieved that aim.
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: sky otter on November 15, 2012, 02:31:10 pm
i do know there is a lot in this country that needs fixed and i also know  that the right to assembly and free speech are a part of that
but damn
maybe you ought to check this out and be a bit more thankful
or
edit to remove an un needed comment..apologizes


China opposition party lasts a day, founder gets 8 years in prison
By NBC News staff and wire reports
Updated at 6:30 a.m. ET:

BEIJING -- A court in China has sentenced a man to eight years in prison for trying to form an opposition party and for online messages criticizing the ruling Chinese Communist Party, a week ahead of a congress which will usher in a new generation of leaders.

Cao Haibo, 27, had called for democracy and had tried to form a party called the "China Republican Party," his lawyer, Ma Xiaopeng, said.

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/01/14847377-china-opposition-party-lasts-a-day-founder-gets-8-years-in-prison?

i'm giveing myself a time out ..so don't bother yellin back at me
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: rdunk on November 15, 2012, 02:52:02 pm
From the standpoint of a Presidential position:

* Not enforcing the laws of the United States, which Obama has sworn to enforce, is an impeachable offense.

* Lying, by the President, to the people of the United States is/should be an impeachable offense

* Any performance by a President in intentional direct conflict with the Constitution of the United States is an impeachable offense

* And etc.! Etc. Etc.

I believe a strong case can be made for these and many others, such that impeachment can/should result, on the basis of the total.

Before it is over, the barefaced lying by the President and his administration, about the Benghazi incident, will on its on, have the possibility of resulting in a Presidential resignation, ,before impeachment (IMO).
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: Littleenki on November 15, 2012, 04:28:48 pm
Bob...Im not a fan of one word analogies, but....Really?

Gold for you Sky and Petrus and that about says the rest.

Good grief....
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: zorgon on November 15, 2012, 06:16:16 pm
"Assassination"  Reserved for only those Presidents that are for "We the people..."

"Impeachment" Reserved for those Presidents that fall into the 'Tricky Dicky" category

What we need is more options :P
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: Littleenki on November 15, 2012, 06:36:11 pm
"Assassination"  Reserved for only those Presidents that are for "We the people..."

"Impeachment" Reserved for those Presidents that fall into the 'Tricky Dicky" category

What we need is more options :P

Bingo, Zorgon! Not words to be thrown about lightly!
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: rdunk on November 15, 2012, 07:23:18 pm
"Assassination"  Reserved for only those Presidents that are for "We the people..."

"Impeachment" Reserved for those Presidents that fall into the 'Tricky Dicky" category

What we need is more options :P

In this country, assassination is not "an option", in dealing with a President who has violated the responsibilities of the office, and his sworn promise of faithful duty in it. The Congress is full well able to deal with the such-like!
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: biggles on December 07, 2012, 06:53:44 pm
In this country, assassination is not "an option", in dealing with a President who has violated the responsibilities of the office, and his sworn promise of faithful duty in it. The Congress is full well able to deal with the such-like!

 :o  ???
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: zorgon on December 07, 2012, 07:39:28 pm
So...

And replace him with...?    8)
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: Sgt.Rocknroll on December 07, 2012, 08:07:53 pm
Sgt.Rocknroll....... 8)
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: petrus4 on December 07, 2012, 08:20:09 pm
BEIJING -- A court in China has sentenced a man to eight years in prison for trying to form an opposition party and for online messages criticizing the ruling Chinese Communist Party, a week ahead of a congress which will usher in a new generation of leaders.

Cao Haibo, 27, had called for democracy and had tried to form a party called the "China Republican Party," his lawyer, Ma Xiaopeng, said.

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/01/14847377-china-opposition-party-lasts-a-day-founder-gets-8-years-in-prison?[/color]

i'm giveing myself a time out ..so don't bother yellin back at me

I'm not going to yell, Otter, but there are two relevant points, here.

a}  America's degeneracy is not excused by the fact that, in some respects at least, China and various other Asian countries (such as North Korea or Burma) are even worse.  This is a classic argument which Americans (particularly military) attempt to use in order to justify American political corruption or foreign invasions and attrocities; but unfortunately, aside from anything else, it is an appeal to both moral relativism and cynicism.

b}  Contrary to American belief, the American governmental model does not represent the best of all possible worlds; and as such, Chinese political activists who attempt to bring about its' implementation in China, are not necessarily to be applauded for doing so.  Large scale continental federalism would exist in either case; and it is the central concentration of power that is the real problem, not whether a government is democratic or a dictatorship in purely formal terms.  The Chinese would need massively localised, decentralised democracy in order to see a real improvement to their condition; not a central federal government of any kind.

Federalism is fundamentally and inherently psychopathic.  It is the means of government which psychopaths use, to attempt to compensate for the fact that they only represent 4-7% of the human population.  What we need is a scenario where the local governments of towns and small municipalities have real power.
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: Amaterasu on December 07, 2012, 08:49:45 pm
The thing that stood out for Me that I would change is the wording wherever it mentions "man" or "men..."  For example, I would say:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all Humans are created equal..."

EDIT to add:  There is a site with an in depth look at the legal aspects of the constitution.  If One is rewriting it, One might do well to read this information:

http://thelastoutpost.com/our-legacy/denounced.html
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: robomont on December 07, 2012, 09:04:24 pm
those are all good reasons for why we need a more individualism type gov.
the problem is we are not equal.
which leads to am i my brothers keeper?
a historically vicious cycle that continues to cannibalize the lower iq humans.
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: zorgon on December 07, 2012, 09:10:23 pm
The thing that stood out for Me that I would change is the wording wherever it mentions "man" or "men..."  For example, I would say:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all Humans are created equal..."

"Man" in that context refers to "mankind" which back then was common usage... just like Adam is not just one man in that other silly book :P

But what happens if martians or greys become citizens... will we have to rewrite it yet again?  Or when your robots demand equality (Johnny 5 :P)  What word will you use then?

 ::)


Quote
EDIT to add:  There is a site with an in depth look at the legal aspects of the constitution.  If One is rewriting it, One might do well to read this information:

Of what use is the constitution when ...

"Stop throwing the Constitution in my face," Bush screamed back. "It's just a goddamned piece of paper!"

What difference do the words make if no one is enforcing the intent?
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: zorgon on December 07, 2012, 09:13:43 pm
The Terrorist Laws and the patriot Act have over written the Constitution..

You can now be dragged out of your house or car, sent to Gitmo and be tortured, just because they don't like you :P

Or because ya want Obama's head on a platter :P  That is cause enough. Remember that ex marine that got arrested for saying that on Facebook?  Uh huh... "Freedom" is dead  Better to move to Russia :P
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: petrus4 on December 07, 2012, 09:16:45 pm
Of what use is the constitution when ...

"Stop throwing the Constitution in my face," Bush screamed back. "It's just a goddamned piece of paper!"

What difference do the words make if no one is enforcing the intent?

The answer to that, is not to allow psychopaths to inhabit the Executive Branch.  Of course, the difficulty with that, is the fact that the entire reason for the Executive Branch, was concession to the existence of psychopaths in the first place.  The Founders created the Executive for the reason that, as you yourself well know, Zorgon, the people will endlessly and relentlessly scream for their Fuhrer; irrespective of the degree to which they are harmed by having one.

I am aware of humanity's addiction to monarchy, but the difference between you and myself is, that you view it as being a good thing. ;)
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: zorgon on December 08, 2012, 03:34:01 am
I am aware of humanity's addiction to monarchy, but the difference between you and myself is, that you view it as being a good thing. ;)

Whether its a good thing or a bad thing is not relevant... what matters is that this is human nature. Humans are a pack animal :D.  And this addiction... well actually a pathological need to have a leader... is why TAP will fail :D

Now as to me... having worn the crown I can tell you it has both its good points and its bad points...
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: Somamech on December 08, 2012, 09:21:02 am
Sgt.Rocknroll....... 8)

I'm up for a bit of that unlimited jukebox mate ;)  ;D
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: Amaterasu on December 08, 2012, 10:36:07 am
Whether its a good thing or a bad thing is not relevant... what matters is that this is human nature. Humans are a pack animal :D.  And this addiction... well actually a pathological need to have a leader... is why TAP will fail :D

Now as to me... having worn the crown I can tell you it has both its good points and its bad points...

Wrong.  We will have stigmergic emergence of the leaders and causes - difference being that TRUTH will win out, BETTERMENT will be the goal, and no One MANDATING anything.  Bottom up governance as opposed to top down governMENT (controlMIND).
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: petrus4 on December 08, 2012, 10:53:36 am
Whether its a good thing or a bad thing is not relevant... what matters is that this is human nature. Humans are a pack animal :D.  And this addiction... well actually a pathological need to have a leader... is why TAP will fail :D

Amy doesn't actually claim that TAP is completely leaderless.  Another Letter From the Future makes the subtle implication of something akin to a council.

If we have to have government, then to an extent I can tolerate it; but my own real grievance, more than anything else, is with federalism, and the scenario where a population of hundreds of millions, are ruled by less than 5% of their own number.  That does not and cannot work, because there is no possibility for real accountability.  It also makes a mockery of law, because legislation is passed which does not have the consent of 98% of the governed.

To me, a good scenario would be one where no individual government ruled more than around 500-1,000 people, (which is roughly at, or possibly even slightly beyond, the upper limit of human cognitive ability to keep track of) and where said group were able to participate in said government; or more specifically, that said group was said government.

History has shown that republics can work, but only when they are extremely small.  They don't scale beyond the limits of individual human cognition.
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: 1Worldwatcher on December 08, 2012, 11:16:48 am
Hi Amy,
Not much for political discussion's and don't have the 'Lawyer Up' mentality for such debates, but with what you are saying propagated by a "Stigmergic" indoctrination, wouldn't this be exactly what has happened with in the echelons for Pr esidencies thus far?

STIGMERGY:
Quote
Stigmergy is not restricted to eusocial creatures, or even to physical systems. On the Internet there are many collective projects where users interact only by modifying local parts of their shared virtual environment. Wikipedia is an example of this.[7] The massive structure of information available in a wiki,[8] or an open source software project such as the FreeBSD kernel[8] could be compared to a termite nest; one initial user leaves a seed of an idea (a mudball) which attracts other users who then build upon and modify this initial concept, eventually constructing an elaborate structure of connected thoughts.[9][10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stigmergy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stigmergy)

I know intentions you present are suppose too be for the greater good, but if all things are too be considered, there is a major flaw with in your plan, mainly being that everyone has there own agenda, which, in all due respects, would create another event of this "Stigmergic" assumption to then again take place, would it not?

I am not an optimist, per say, but I know when there is confliction with statement and ideological assumptions. I don't think this would turn out the way you want it too, for the simple fact, "I can tell you anything you want too hear, but have Ideals way beyond your perception of the position." and you or anyone else would not know it until it started happening.

Petrus had mentioned that each state should be governed within it's own government, this is a novel idea, but once again, we are not sure of the powers ability to display absolute power, whether it be a good way or bad way until the governance began, and by then, chaos will rear it's ugly head once again too thwart all conceptual prowess to this idea even working in a short term theoretical point of view..IMHO
Tis all leads too a level of empirical socialism, what ever you may have for the answers with yourself is just, right and preempted for the better of all mankind, but the person yielding a "Double Edged Sword" with their words, well, this is what we have been doing in the first place.
Don't see this happening in a good way 100% proof positive.

Great for presenting your Karma for such matters, but not much by way of realities current establishment from one individual too another.

With Great Respects,
1Worldwatcher
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: Amaterasu on December 08, 2012, 11:58:11 am
Amy doesn't actually claim that TAP is completely leaderless.  Another Letter From the Future makes the subtle implication of something akin to a council.

If we have to have government, then to an extent I can tolerate it; but my own real grievance, more than anything else, is with federalism, and the scenario where a population of hundreds of millions, are ruled by less than 5% of their own number.  That does not and cannot work, because there is no possibility for real accountability.  It also makes a mockery of law, because legislation is passed which does not have the consent of 98% of the governed.

To me, a good scenario would be one where no individual government ruled more than around 500-1,000 people, (which is roughly at, or possibly even slightly beyond, the upper limit of human cognitive ability to keep track of) and where said group were able to participate in said government; or more specifically, that said group was said government.

History has shown that republics can work, but only when they are extremely small.  They don't scale beyond the limits of individual human cognition.

No.  No councils.  Stigmergic efforst with leaders emerging as ideas garner support.
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: Amaterasu on December 08, 2012, 12:01:03 pm
Hi Amy,
Not much for political discussion's and don't have the 'Lawyer Up' mentality for such debates, but with what you are saying propagated by a "Stigmergic" indoctrination, wouldn't this be exactly what has happened with in the echelons for Pr esidencies thus far?

STIGMERGY:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stigmergy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stigmergy)

I know intentions you present are suppose too be for the greater good, but if all things are too be considered, there is a major flaw with in your plan, mainly being that everyone has there own agenda, which, in all due respects, would create another event of this "Stigmergic" assumption to then again take place, would it not?

I am not an optimist, per say, but I know when there is confliction with statement and ideological assumptions. I don't think this would turn out the way you want it too, for the simple fact, "I can tell you anything you want too hear, but have Ideals way beyond your perception of the position." and you or anyone else would not know it until it started happening.

Petrus had mentioned that each state should be governed within it's own government, this is a novel idea, but once again, we are not sure of the powers ability to display absolute power, whether it be a good way or bad way until the governance began, and by then, chaos will rear it's ugly head once again too thwart all conceptual prowess to this idea even working in a short term theoretical point of view..IMHO
Tis all leads too a level of empirical socialism, what ever you may have for the answers with yourself is just, right and preempted for the better of all mankind, but the person yielding a "Double Edged Sword" with their words, well, this is what we have been doing in the first place.
Don't see this happening in a good way 100% proof positive.

Great for presenting your Karma for such matters, but not much by way of realities current establishment from one individual too another.

With Great Respects,
1Worldwatcher

With the removal of the need for exchange, and with the Betterment ethic supplanting Our slave's "ethic" (work "ethic") the agendas will be vastly different and far more positive.  A single One with negative agenda will not gain foothold.
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: 1Worldwatcher on December 08, 2012, 12:45:32 pm
With the removal of the need for exchange, and with the Betterment ethic supplanting Our slave's "ethic" (work "ethic") the agendas will be vastly different and far more positive.  A single One with negative agenda will not gain foothold.

Left out the most important part of my opinion "On purpose or accidental?" HHhhMMmm?  ::)

Quote
STIGMERGY:

Quote
Stigmergy is not restricted to eusocial creatures, or even to physical systems. On the Internet there are many collective projects where users interact only by modifying local parts of their shared virtual environment. Wikipedia is an example of this.[7] The massive structure of information available in a wiki,[8] or an open source software project such as the FreeBSD kernel[8] could be compared to a termite nest; one initial user leaves a seed of an idea (a mudball) which attracts other users who then build upon and modify this initial concept, eventually constructing an elaborate structure of connected thoughts.  [9][10]

Keeping it honest here....

1WW
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: petrus4 on December 08, 2012, 01:16:46 pm
Petrus had mentioned that each state should be governed within it's own government, this is a novel idea

It's only novel from the perspective that it is taboo.  Federalism is one of the main sacred cows of our society, that if you'll notice, for the most part we do not talk about, or even think about.  Large scale, centralised concentration of political power is simply assumed as a given.  Even those who refer to themselves as anarchists, unfortunately still think in terms of the Internationale.

Quote
but once again, we are not sure of the powers ability to display absolute power, whether it be a good way or bad way until the governance began, and by then, chaos will rear it's ugly head once again too thwart all conceptual prowess to this idea even working in a short term theoretical point of view..IMHO

Chaos as a social threat is an almost completely (if not truly completely) hypothetical and fictitious fear which the psychopaths who insist that we need centralised government, have indoctrinated us to accept.  Before we had the contemporary nation state, or even monarchy, humans were organising themselves into various different social structures for as long as we have existed.  The usual indigenous model was a relatively small band, which reflected the human cognitive capacity for maintaining individual relationships and accountability, but there were a myriad of others.

Zorgon will likely refute this, as he usually does; but I would encourage him to recognise that any disagreement we have on this point is actually minor.  He wants power vested in a single individual, whereas I am more in favour of a legislative body consisting of the population itself; but where we both seem to agree, is on the need for each individual realm to be of relatively small size, in either case.

Quote
Tis all leads too a level of empirical socialism, what ever you may have for the answers with yourself is just, right and preempted for the better of all mankind, but the person yielding a "Double Edged Sword" with their words, well, this is what we have been doing in the first place.

The central problem always comes back to the psychopaths.  As long as the psychopaths exist, and as long as the non-psychopathic majority defends and advocates their rule, and refuses to actively wield its' sovereignty, then we can talk about literally any kind of political or economic system we want, and we are still just drawing hypothetical castles in the sky.

Quote
Don't see this happening in a good way 100% proof positive.

We will only see fundamentally positive change, when the public realise that psychopathic governance is actually more detrimental to them and to their needs, than self-rule. 

The central problem with monarchy, is that it is inconsistent.  If I could have a king who would govern my affairs as competently and benevolently as I could myself, then why would I not want that?  All the king would do in such a scenario, would be to save me work.  The issue, however, is that while Rome had the likes of Marcus Aurelius and Augustus, it also had Caligula and Nero. 

Zorgon himself might well not be a tyrant, but how can he give me any guarantee that his heirs will not be?  In the event that they are, then if I am to recognise their divine right to governance, I have no recourse.
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: petrus4 on December 08, 2012, 01:24:59 pm
No.  No councils.  Stigmergic efforts with leaders emerging as ideas garner support.

Does that mean, then, that to the extent that leadership exists, its' emergence and dissolution are dynamic, dependent on the duration of the projects they govern?
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: zorgon on December 08, 2012, 01:25:06 pm
Wrong. 

Wrong? Ermmm no I have seen it first hand. In my Medieval world people WILLINGLY seek out a strong leader and put the crown on him. You don't just get a crown  The PEOPLE choose you. It is their BLISS and there are over 40,000 people and their support groups world wide in just the one main 'social' group.

So I see it first hand. And these people have money (its not cheap to live a Medieval lifestyle these days :P) and many of them are military or the like.  These are the people that are the driving force. These are the people with the guts to lay on each other with swords, or get on a horsey and knock someone off theirs with a big stick

You cannot fight this human nature without reprogramming the species... and if you do THAT, you are the enemy with your own brand of MIND control.

The thing is that the reality of Planet Earth is that we are a cradle... a kindergarten in the scheme of the Universe. We are barely starting out on the journey of life. Most souls on Earth are young souls... (despite the fact that all these newagers think they are ready for enlightenment and ascension :P)  Doesn't work that way... there is no free ride to the next level... it has to be earned.

Earth IS Hell... THIS is where we go through our trials and personal purgatories. THIS is where the soul learns what it needs to advance...

And if you fail this time around, no worries... you get to take the class over again :P


Some people in misery on this rock? Well most likely they are paying the price for previous 'errors'  and as the saying goes "Penance is Good for the Soul"

Their is no need to save humanity... it's all in the Universal Plan. Suffrage strengthens the Soul. There are powerful lessons to be learned from humility.

Governments come and go... Empires are built, shine in the Glory of the Day and then are destroyed by the next group, who then build a new Empire

Population Growth..

I see all the conspiracy nuts daily talking about how the PTB wants us all dead in any of a thousand plots to reduce our numbers. Yet despite the fact that weapons of mass destruction have ever increased in power and their ability to annihilate millions...  Still the population of the world is increasing exponentially.  With all the biological stuff THEY have wiping out vast populations would be a matter of DAYS.... so as far as I can see... they have no such intent and its all BS

On the other hand, the more people that their are on this rock, the more will die when Mother Nature unleashes her wrath on the world...

Sumatra Tsunami for example. The last time they had one... there were only a few fishing villages in the area and they were smart enough to see the signs of receding water and headed uphill.  Those same villagers and ALL the animals did the same thing this time and ALL were spared...

But over 250,000 people died that day... not because of a government plot, not because of some malevolent godlike entity, but because the area is now swarming with people that have no clue about the reality of their environment.  Some were collecting the seashells when the tide went out :P  I have no pity for those types.

The point in all of this is the Universe is Unfolding as it should. We are here to learn for the next level. All the games and pity battles here are fleeting and mean nothing in the end...



Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: zorgon on December 08, 2012, 01:30:21 pm
Does that mean, then, that to the extent that leadership exists, its' emergence and dissolution are dynamic, dependent on the duration of the projects they govern?

Yes  Rome is a prime example.  It was a grand society but slipped into decadence when the citizens lived a life of Abundance. They could literally have everything they wanted (albeit at the exense og outsiders :P ) The built aqauducts, they built a collusium that had CEMENT and could be flooded for sea battles... They had indoor pipe plumbing. They COULD have triggere the industrial revolution.

But what did they do? They became lazy and went for orgies of abundance.  and in the end the project that was Rome failed  and the barbarians destroyed it

There are more projects in history that are prime examples where a group run by a strong leader with a vision to create a utopia for his people, managed to do what it took to create this dream... only to have it destroyed in its prime
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: petrus4 on December 08, 2012, 01:40:13 pm
Wrong? Ermmm no I have seen it first hand. In my Medieval world people WILLINGLY seek out a strong leader and put the crown on him. You don't just get a crown  The PEOPLE choose you. It is their BLISS and there are over 40,000 people and their support groups world wide in just the one main 'social' group.

I will never forget a particular incident that occurred for me in World of Warcraft, once.

To offer some background, I used to play Capture the Flag games in WoW; and it eventually got to the point where I ended up leading teams, as well.  The teams were ten man squads, with each game running for 60 minutes.  On the day in question, I'd managed to co-ordinate wins in two straight games; and while we were in the game's equivalent of a lobby, waiting to enter the third, I started discussing strategy for the next game with other members of my team.

In terms of the game mechanics, leadership of a particular group was identified by a small crown icon, which up to that point, I hadn't had; I'd been doing it informally, and people had been going along with my suggestions because they had worked.  At some point in that conversation, however, whoever had previously held said icon passed it to me.  It was completely wordless; no attention was drawn to it...but I saw it as a validation of what I'd been able to do for the group.  So as I have said before, some of my own experience bears out some of your observations.

Quote
So I see it first hand. And these people have money (its not cheap to live a Medieval lifestyle these days :P) and many of them are military or the like.

There is a clue here though, Zorgon.  Military are trained to accept a scenario of leaders and followers; and that in itself is a system of thought reform.  If the people you've got with you are primarily military, then that explains a lot.

The other problem with your belief in the inevitability of monarchy, is that at least the early history of your own country directly contradicts it.  One of the most constantly heard refrains among the Founders was that they did not want a king.  There is massive evidence, of which America's founding is only one element, to support the idea that centralised monarchy is a system of government which humanity is gradually, developmentally moving away from.  Yes, the process is slow, but there is a process.

Quote
The point in all of this is the Universe is Unfolding as it should. We are here to learn for the next level. All the games and pity battles here are fleeting and mean nothing in the end...

Sure, God is in control; but don't forget that one of the most effective ways that God manifests, is through our own actions. ;)
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: petrus4 on December 08, 2012, 02:13:46 pm
Zorgon, I've just realised, that there is another inherent paradox, involved in your insistence that TAP cannot work.

To the extent that you insist that monarchy is the only system which is conformant with human nature, you cite direct, personal, practical experience, in order to support that claim.  Yet your basis for refuting TAP can only be theoretical in nature, because there has not been an attempt made to implement it.

So there's a catch 22.  People say it can't work, before there has been any attempt to determine whether or not it can.  We can't say that there is hard experimental evidence to support whether or not it will work, because there isn't any; yet people still insist that it won't work, on a purely theoretical basis.
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: sky otter on December 08, 2012, 02:27:59 pm

Quote
Sure, God is in control; but don't forget that one of the most effective ways that God manifests, is through our own actions.


ah and there is the flaw

we think someone besides ourselves should be in control or is in control and we follow and allow the one we think has control

god if you believe in a/any  god  is not in control..s/he has turned control over to each of us to learn how to use control

3D is where we get an opportunity in each decision we make..even if it is to sit and make no decision
or to bs our way thur life believing that what others think of us matters..or any of it matters
except for our learning personal contol OF OUR POWER

most just give it away

if there is a grade way below F..

Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: petrus4 on December 08, 2012, 02:31:39 pm
we think someone besides ourselves should be in control or is in control and we follow and allow the one we think has control

I don't.  Ask Zorgon if he thinks I want to live on his reservation.  He knows. ;)
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: PLAYSWITHMACHINES on December 08, 2012, 04:01:29 pm
Z has a few very good points;
Quote
You can now be dragged out of your house or car, sent to Gitmo and be tortured, just because they don't like you

Or because ya want Obama's head on a platter   That is cause enough. Remember that ex marine that got arrested for saying that on Facebook?  Uh huh... "Freedom" is dead  Better to move to Russia

Russia? no thanks, but i think that may be true now, but not when sh** starts to happen, all the soldiers cops etc have families too....i think that will be their first loyalty, don't you?

Quote
Quote from: petrus4 on 07-12-2012, 21:16:45
"I am aware of humanity's addiction to monarchy, but the difference between you and myself is, that you view it as being a good thing. "

Whether its a good thing or a bad thing is not relevant... what matters is that this is human nature. Humans are a pack animal .  And this addiction... well actually a pathological need to have a leader...
Then we should be busy teaching our future leaders, no?
All kids showing signs of leadership get sent to 'fuhrer school' ja? ::)
Well, send them to a buddhist temple for 5-10 years first, & see where we go from there :P

Quote
is why TAP will fail

I can't see why.
Yes you will still have, & still need, leaders, in the short-term future.
We have evolved our 'pack animal' instinct to the point of there being so many million Elvis fans, or so many million Marxists, or so many million Muslims, but we need our leaders to grow up in an environment of peace & knoweledge, so that they be more like Elvis & less like Vlad the Impaler.
That, of course, will come about only when there is no more war.
Long way to go yet, folks. But i could just maybe stretch my imagination to the point that we COULD do it.
We would simply WANT to do it, that's all.

Quote
Now as to me... having worn the crown I can tell you it has both its good points and its bad points...
I daresay that's very true, look at that bloody mess with Kate's nurse...

Petrus has also some points;
Quote
Amy doesn't actually claim that TAP is completely leaderless.  Another Letter From the Future makes the subtle implication of something akin to a council.

We would need something until we either get to the hive-mind scenario, or something better hapens (for want of a good idea)

Quote
To me, a good scenario would be one where no individual government ruled more than around 500-1,000 people, (which is roughly at, or possibly even slightly beyond, the upper limit of human cognitive ability to keep track of) and where said group were able to participate in said government; or more specifically, that said group was said government.
Thousands of Moderators LOL.
I get the point, but still each group of 1000 would have to agree to co-exist in the same general TAP environment as the groups around them, for this to work.And they will have to communicate with their peers a lot, so a general concensus of the feelings of the peeps is generally known by all 'mods', & this is duly reported back to the peeps.
One would think that as our minds grew more 'cognitive' in this environment, they would also be able to keep track of greater numbers of people. In fact, 'social networking' would probably be a large part of our lives ;)

Quote
Chaos as a social threat is an almost completely (if not truly completely) hypothetical and fictitious fear which the psychopaths who insist that we need centralised government, have indoctrinated us to accept.
I say!
Quote
humans were organising themselves into various different social structures for as long as we have existed.  The usual indigenous model was a relatively small band, which reflected the human cognitive capacity for maintaining individual relationships and accountability, but there were a myriad of others.
True :)
Quote
Does that mean, then, that to the extent that leadership exists, its' emergence and dissolution are dynamic, dependent on the duration of the projects they govern?
...or for the duration of the problem. Once the problem is solved, they can be dissolved.

Quote
But what did they do? They became lazy and went for orgies of abundance.  and in the end the project that was Rome failed  and the barbarians destroyed it
True, but it was our best shot so far.
And yes it's a trap, abundance can turn to decadence, if allowed to happen.
I reckon we'll cross that bridge when we come to it..
Have 2 go,
Later!

Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: Amaterasu on December 08, 2012, 05:22:06 pm
Left out the most important part of my opinion "On purpose or accidental?" HHhhMMmm?  ::)

Keeping it honest here....

1WW

I guess I'm not seeing what You're getting at.
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: Amaterasu on December 08, 2012, 05:27:44 pm
Does that mean, then, that to the extent that leadership exists, its' emergence and dissolution are dynamic, dependent on the duration of the projects they govern?

Exactly.  Oh, and to Your point about chaos...  Many mistakenly think chaos = randomness.  In fact, in chaos there is an infolded or hidden structure out of which comes an ordered pattern within the chaotic "soup."  Randomness is...well...heh...random.

When One heats water, the molecules move chaotically, but the infolded structure emerges in the form of convection cells.
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: Amaterasu on December 08, 2012, 05:29:26 pm
Wrong? Ermmm no I have seen it first hand. In my Medieval world people WILLINGLY seek out a strong leader and put the crown on him. You don't just get a crown  The PEOPLE choose you. It is their BLISS and there are over 40,000 people and their support groups world wide in just the one main 'social' group.

z, I did not say that People don't seek to lead or to be led.  The "wrong" was about the "That's why TAP won't work."

EDIT to add:  I would have figured the REST of My reply made that clear.  Really, You aren't THAT dence are You?  In fact I see MANY social cells emerging in the chaos with leaders and followers.
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: Amaterasu on December 08, 2012, 05:40:08 pm
Yes  Rome is a prime example.  It was a grand society but slipped into decadence when the citizens lived a life of Abundance. They could literally have everything they wanted (albeit at the exense og outsiders :P ) The built aqauducts, they built a collusium that had CEMENT and could be flooded for sea battles... They had indoor pipe plumbing. They COULD have triggere the industrial revolution.

Wrong (and pay attention to the rest, here).  Rome is a prime example of an energy-scarce society that required Human energy to be input into the system.  Of COURSE it struggled when it was feeding everyOne and all.  TAP is NOT the same.  There is NOTHING in history that is comparable.  EVERY society in the past has been in a scarcity paradigm.

Quote
But what did they do? They became lazy and went for orgies of abundance.  and in the end the project that was Rome failed  and the barbarians destroyed it

Did They institute the Betterment Ethic?  Did They encourage following One's bliss in creating?  No.  They were living with scarce energy in a system that required Human energy input, and had no social guidance principles at all.

Quote
There are more projects in history that are prime examples where a group run by a strong leader with a vision to create a utopia for his people, managed to do what it took to create this dream... only to have it destroyed in its prime

Again with the scarcity paradigm examples?  Irrelevant to TAP.
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: petrus4 on December 09, 2012, 12:44:25 am
Exactly.  Oh, and to Your point about chaos...  Many mistakenly think chaos = randomness.  In fact, in chaos there is an infolded or hidden structure out of which comes an ordered pattern within the chaotic "soup."  Randomness is...well...heh...random.

When One heats water, the molecules move chaotically, but the infolded structure emerges in the form of convection cells.

I'm well aware of that, Amy.  You could say that the relationship between order and chaos is something of an interest of mine. :D
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: PLAYSWITHMACHINES on December 09, 2012, 09:30:20 am
Beautifully put, Amy :)
Petrus i agree with, also.
Zorgon has many good point also..
I can't agree with all of you, can i?
See, i'm a chaotic person, knew that from the start. I like to call it 'being spontaneous' 8)
There is real truth also in that from the chaos comes order, the boiling water analogy was good.
But what we need is guided chaos, chaos with a general leaning towards goodness, to creation as well as destruction. Nature always solves the problem itself, if we leave it up to her, she might decide that we're too dangerous to be allowed to exist, & she will wipe us out.
Have to go, things to do....
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: The Matrix Traveller on December 09, 2012, 11:31:11 am
Quote
I'm well aware of that, Amy.  You could say that the relationship between order and chaos is something of an interest of mine.

You aren't wrong there petrus4 re. "Order and Chaos", they are "Opposites" and very much involved in the Processes taking place in us !

One can NOT exist without the Other; Like the Left can't exist without the Right, nor the "Inner" without the The "Outer" ...  :D

You should receive a little GOLD for that statement...   :D
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: Somamech on December 09, 2012, 11:49:25 am


ah and there is the flaw

we think someone besides ourselves should be in control or is in control and we follow and allow the one we think has control

god if you believe in a/any  god  is not in control..s/he has turned control over to each of us to learn how to use control

3D is where we get an opportunity in each decision we make..even if it is to sit and make no decision
or to bs our way thur life believing that what others think of us matters..or any of it matters
except for our learning personal contol OF OUR POWER

most just give it away

if there is a grade way below F..

Its so odd that WE ALL need reminding of this. 

We all place so much import on a given life span... yet we never die  :o 8)
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: Amaterasu on December 09, 2012, 01:27:20 pm
Beautifully put, Amy :)
Petrus i agree with, also.
Zorgon has many good point also..
I can't agree with all of you, can i?
See, i'm a chaotic person, knew that from the start. I like to call it 'being spontaneous' 8)
There is real truth also in that from the chaos comes order, the boiling water analogy was good.
But what we need is guided chaos, chaos with a general leaning towards goodness, to creation as well as destruction. Nature always solves the problem itself, if we leave it up to her, she might decide that we're too dangerous to be allowed to exist, & she will wipe us out.
Have to go, things to do....

What We need is a chaos based on a positive fractal seed.  That is what I offered up in The End of Entropy.
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: Amaterasu on December 09, 2012, 01:35:07 pm
I'm well aware of that, Amy.  You could say that the relationship between order and chaos is something of an interest of mine. :D

I admit, Petrus, I figured YOU knew that. [smile]  That was for the benefit of any who might have been unaware of the very fundamental difference between chaos and randomness.
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: PLAYSWITHMACHINES on December 09, 2012, 02:39:23 pm
I loved that, i want to see that statement glowing;

What We need is a chaos based on a positive fractal seed.

Wait 1 while i dig up my favourite fractal image...

(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/inventors_group/images/ODD/brain-3J.JPG)
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: robomont on December 09, 2012, 04:27:58 pm
so basically a verbal virus.
like," be nice",only more infective?
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: petrus4 on December 09, 2012, 06:46:13 pm
I admit, Petrus, I figured YOU knew that. [smile]  That was for the benefit of any who might have been unaware of the very fundamental difference between chaos and randomness.

I'm not inclined to believe that randomness exists, in all honesty.  Try looking up how difficult they've found it to write a random number generator, for computer security.  A truly random solution seems to be impossible.

What you have is synchronicity, which is more than capable of superficially simulating randomness, if the user requires it; but when you get down far enough, it collapses.
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: Amaterasu on December 09, 2012, 07:23:29 pm
I'm not inclined to believe that randomness exists, in all honesty.  Try looking up how difficult they've found it to write a random number generator, for computer security.  A truly random solution seems to be impossible.

What you have is synchronicity, which is more than capable of superficially simulating randomness, if the user requires it; but when you get down far enough, it collapses.

I think You're right, Petrus.  "Randomness" does exists as a concept, though, and many People think chaos means the same as the concept of random.
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: The Matrix Traveller on December 09, 2012, 09:30:34 pm
Quote
I'm not inclined to believe that randomness exists, in all honesty.  Try looking up how difficult they've found it to write a random number generator, for computer security.  A truly random solution seems to be impossible.

What you have is synchronicity, which is more than capable of superficially simulating randomness, if the user requires it; but when you get down far enough, it collapses.

IMO you 100% correct in these statements.

In my early days in business I was involved with gaming machines for a short period of time, testing software for machines which had to meet "Internal Affairs" requirements.

Soon found how difficult it is to obtain a random result.

We Never did find an Algorithm to achieve this.

But rather discovered like the Order in Chaos...   :D

It a "Paradox" in MHOP.

Perhaps because ALL is based on the "Simultaneous Paradoxical Algorithm" expressed in Geometric terms, as I N Z

Not in the sense of Letters, but rather Sequences of "Opposites" in the form of "To & Fro" and "Rotation" contained within the Algorithm.

They only appear as like "Letter forms" because of the Sequences taking place.
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: PLAYSWITHMACHINES on December 10, 2012, 07:01:50 am
Wish i understood half of what you're saying, Matrix. But i get the drift.
I hate algorithms, had a go at them with my 'a.i. tank battle' games on my Amiga. The concept then was to eliminate chaos, by writing codes that predicted or accounted for, erratic behavior.
Example; IF tank A does this, THEN tank B will do so, etc.
That was hard enough, trying to promote randomness is next to impossible.
The closest you would get to it would be 'the brownian motion from molecules of water in a nice hot cup of tea' as Douglas Adams put it ::)
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: Littleenki on December 10, 2012, 07:08:43 am
Wow, this thread skewed away from the original post! LOL!

Not that the OP was much of a subject for rational and intelligent thought..  :o

So can I get back to PONG now Luke? ;)
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: PLAYSWITHMACHINES on December 10, 2012, 10:47:06 am
Yeah i think so, Dave 8)

We pretty much all agree he should be impeached, but we all know if that happens, the next one is being lined up already.... ::)
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: Amaterasu on December 10, 2012, 11:43:40 am
so basically a verbal virus.
like," be nice",only more infective?

All societal behavior norms are based on "verbal virii."  So...verbal virus, ok.  Yeah.  More "infective?"  With any luck.  Like the work "ethic" was introduced to entrain Us Humans to voluntarily pump Our energy to the system, the Betterment Ethic is likely to be embraced.
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: The Matrix Traveller on December 10, 2012, 11:46:39 am
Yeah i think so, Dave 8)

We pretty much all agree he should be impeached, but we all know if that happens, the next one is being lined up already.... ::)

We should Impeach the whole damn lot right across the Earth and have LIFE as our boss and guide.

Us primates, Model 6365338/a2, should be kept in the zoo, (earth) instead of finding leaders out of our cage to rule over us.... LOL.    :D

The Only True and Honest Boss is LIFE

Without LIFE we can do absolutely Nothing at all !

At least LIFE i.e. our "Awareness" doesn't Lie cheat demand tax's or abandon us during this experience.   ;D
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: PLAYSWITHMACHINES on December 10, 2012, 11:52:55 am
Right you are, Matrix :)

The new declaration of independence should be the declaration of life itself, our perception of it, recognition, and taking part in it  seems to be a good idea ;)
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: Ellirium113 on December 10, 2012, 11:55:56 am
Yeah i think so, Dave 8)

We pretty much all agree he should be impeached, but we all know if that happens, the next one is being lined up already.... ::)

Quick someone hire a prostitute to go give Obama oral sex and we can get this process underway. It seems sexual offenses are the only thing that can get them kicked out.  ;D
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: Littleenki on December 10, 2012, 12:57:36 pm
The fact that the bloodline is allowed to procreate at all after the insanity that it brings is evident is a sexual crime in itself!

Politicians and bankers should be castrated and hysterectomized before they can have offspring.

Just saying, selective eugenics isnt a bad idea....


Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: petrus4 on December 10, 2012, 02:50:51 pm
I think You're right, Petrus.  "Randomness" does exists as a concept, though, and many People think chaos means the same as the concept of random.

What most people think of when they talk about chaos or randomness, is actually what I call entropy, or Yin, to refer to the Chinese way of looking at things.  I define entropy as a state in which no single unit of energy (or quanta, to use the usual term) has a stable relationship or bond with any other.  In other words, entropy is not a state in which energy does not exist; rather, it is a state in which energy does not form coherent patterns.

The analogy that I use mentally, is a pile of powder of some type; say sand or flour.  The analogy doesn't completely serve, because sand still has some form; but we can say that sand exists in a more entropic state than sandstone.

I also think the idea that energy remains constant, but that entropy continually increases, is absurd; and is demonstrably so, due to the observation that if it were true, the universe could not continue to exist in a coherent form at all.  As Bashar says, the system is actually biased very slightly (on the order of 51%) towards energy, and it has to be in order to continue to survive.
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: PLAYSWITHMACHINES on December 10, 2012, 04:08:14 pm
Exactly!
Good one.... ::)
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: Amaterasu on December 10, 2012, 05:04:44 pm
What most people think of when they talk about chaos or randomness, is actually what I call entropy, or Yin, to refer to the Chinese way of looking at things.  I define entropy as a state in which no single unit of energy (or quanta, to use the usual term) has a stable relationship or bond with any other.  In other words, entropy is not a state in which energy does not exist; rather, it is a state in which energy does not form coherent patterns.

The analogy that I use mentally, is a pile of powder of some type; say sand or flour.  The analogy doesn't completely serve, because sand still has some form; but we can say that sand exists in a more entropic state than sandstone.

I also think the idea that energy remains constant, but that entropy continually increases, is absurd; and is demonstrably so, due to the observation that if it were true, the universe could not continue to exist in a coherent form at all.  As Bashar says, the system is actually biased very slightly (on the order of 51%) towards energy, and it has to be in order to continue to survive.

I do think We're on the same page, Petrus.  GFY.  (Gold for...)  Well put.
Title: Re: A New Declaration Of Independence: Impeach Obama Now
Post by: robomont on December 10, 2012, 06:10:03 pm
i also  agree with petrus on the fifty one percent .
maybe even more like 50.00009%