As L.E. stated, the 100 mile food economy would be the first step. Not just food, but most things could be made locally, until the transport & robot system is in place. Then you could just build one giant factory near the mine & export the products all over the world. Likewise, materials from the world can be sent to the factory (this way you avoid having robots running around empty handed).
But that's for the future, we need first to bridge the transition by reverting to a simple, local economy.
Robo;
to be forced to choose is no choice.
There is
always a choice, even if you choose 'none of the above' it's a choice one can make.
It would maybe not be as good a choice as 'going with the flow' but one is still free to make it.
most people are idiots,i dont have much faith in democracy being a good avenue for the future.anarchy is more my liking.not chaos though.
Most people are
unaware, this does not make them stupid
per se, most are simply unaware because they are not noticing their surroundings. Others are being intentionally 'unaware' because they are afraid to step out of their comfort zone & seek the truth. The awareness is spreading, albeit slowly.
A democracy based on the above laws would have the best chance of surviving, especially if there's no possibility for personal gain at the cost of others.
Anarchy is different from chaos, we could have a loose, chaotic, ad-hoc world government running from the social networks.
These countries would be pretty much free to do as they please, so long as they stay within the 3 laws, share resources & info etc.
Since they themselves will also receive free resources info etc, they will greatly benefit from being part of it......
LOL Fruitbat, i loved that post
As for 'rewards' & accolades for doing good work, why not? But a true inventor is humble & would therefore not seek profit in any way. However, if one of us invents something, it is free for all to share, as long as they acknoweledge the inventor.
Myself, i would simply ask for (in leu of payment) a ton of transistors & copper wire for my next project from the 'resource pool', thanks
I'd imagine once the word got out my youtube channel would be pretty busy and my initial ebay sales would be quite strong until someone mass produces copies and undercuts me...
That is THE problem.
Anything that they can get 'intellectual rights' on will merely create a new power struggle, since they will be quick to get it licensed, taxed, copyrighted, you name it, until it's just as expensive as oil.
They would get
even richer while we will basically still be in the same brown stuff......
The ONLY way to avoid this is to open source EVERYTHING. Like FB said, you would be free to sell your machines (and the idea here is that you sell the machine for a SMALL profit, enough to buy the components for 2 more machines for example) but you will be required by law to include the full (open sourced) plans with the machine.
Also, being 'open source' means that people will be free to change the design, experimant with it etc, just like Android & other software. This means there will be continuous improvements made, free of charge
Yes, Pimander;
To implement the changes or change THE LAW requires having the power to do so. That makes it political in a very real sense. Do you think those in power will stop engaging in politics because you ask them nicely to step aside?
Change will come by forcing the people in power to change because it will not be politically expedient to do anything else. That involves being the opposite of politically naive.
Yes, it will not involve behaving in the obscenely distasteful ways the majority of successful politicians do. However, even removing the current banking system is a highly political act and will only be done with a new type of politics.
There is a reason that the 60s never gave us the world it hoped to. That was due to not engaging in a politically effective way and never having any real power.
We can ask the politicians to step aside in many different ways, Pim
I think the most effective one would be for thousands of us to stand around their homes shouting "We don't need you anymore".
As for removing the current banking system, it is going to remove itself, we will have to resort to a precious metal & simple trade system until the new system kicks in. This involves not only the spreading of 'the word' but also the free energy machines, the whole shebang presented as a complete package, with a complete thread on every issue.
Kind of what we're thrashing out here today That's the point, if someone comes onto this forum, they will have many questions & arguments, and we can say 'yes, we've covered that
here would you like to join the discussion group?
"There is a reason that the 60s never gave us the world it hoped to. That was due to not engaging in a politically effective way and never having any real power."
"And also not having a clearly defined path to progress on. My work has been to provide precisely that."
Touche' Amy
That's the point i am trying to make. We do have a clearly defined path, based on logic, mutual trust, respect etc etc.
Yes, there are problems, mostly to do with human nature. That has to change as well. It IS changing.
Only most people are still in the dark as to what to do next, even being 'aware' is not enough, you have to know what to do next.
Well, we are covering that in great detail, are we not?
Quote from: Amaterasu on 19-10-2012, 14:56:35
Like spreading awareness to the tipping point such that We just do it.
Yes, that is why I am helping to run a site like this. It is to TRY to spread awareness. But there is a need for more than awareness even though awareness is an important step in the right direction.
See above
Part of that path has to be the ability to make laws in line with our aims. It is politicians that make the laws.
True, but you also have unwritten natural laws, that people tend to adopt.
Why do we wave at people, even strangers on a passing ship?
We wave to show them that we have no weapons in our hands, that we come in peace.
It's an ancient human reaction to another human, just like dogs wag their tails at other dogs.
OK so now we have developed speech, writing, moving pictures & the 'net. But the communication is still the same.
I can chat with someone far away, living in a totally different culture, & say 'look, i wish you no harm, i would like to talk'
And in talking to them, one finds that they generally have the same values as you.
Don't kill, don't waste, be good to people etc.
In other words, people when left to themselves, will generally evolve these basic laws, very much like the 3 'Amy' ones
It's just common sense.
Why kill you neighbour in the summer, & find out you needed his help for the harvest?
Result: you starve, so you are both dead....
If we hadn't found these natural laws, we would not be here today, i'm sure of it
My dear Pim
Governance via the web is a pipe dream for a long time. Large proportions of the worlds population do not even have running water let alone internet access.
True enough, but the general consent for it is there already. IF we could communicate freely without gubmint interference, it would be a great step in the right direction. True, we need to literally get more people with running water before we can hope to give them anything else.
First you need awareness and THE MEANS to be energy independent. But in the transition, to anything resembling an era of abundance for most, you have to be able to engage politically to run things and make the technology and knowledge available to the millions of people currently out of reach. Awareness is beyond most of the millions of people in Europe, Japan and North America yet.
Oh yes, they go hand in hand. You must approach those that DO have internet access, show them the problem, the answer, the choices they have, & the knoweledge to make a free energy machine, if not an actual machine, as a free gift
I can see the page now;
Sign up with the world awareness party & receive a free 100 watt energy box today!Hows that for political clout?
I think your aims are commendable. Your methods of achieving it are destined to fail. Humanity will wipe itself out long before it happens unless we start to change laws in a democratic and progressive way. A cabal in control..... will not let go of power because some of the population ignore them. To avoid an apocalyptic scenario you have to have a political arm.
Hmm, it's change fast, or die. I think that should be on the front page of the Abundance Paradigm book, don't you?
Yes, we do need to get politically involved.
That will involve a quagmire of arguments, beliefs etc which have nothing to do with the outcome, and may in fact hinder it, but it needs to be done.
Pim is right in that we do have a very real political aim with this, don't we?
Are we 'libertarians'?It is something we will have to get involved in at some stage, since it will be easier to reach people if you at least start with a firm political standpoint.
(of course, any talk of a real local economy system will get you labelled as a 'commie' on sites like ATS within seconds
)
"Yessir, we's all gawd-fearin, hard workin' bible thumpin' redneck pa-tree-arts, we don' need youse dirty commie hippies roun' here"
To which, my usual reply is "We don't use 'ism's' of any kind roun' here"
(which is a bit of a lie, i like buddh
ism I'm with you all the way on making people aware. However, I am completely against your notion that it would be a bad thing to have political clout. It is a naive and dangerous position.
I think you have a good point, Pim. You should head up the political arm of TAP, Amy the 'awareness team' & the inventors busy on the machines!
All working together, publishers, historians, reporters, tinkerers, and yes maybe even lawyers (OMG) we can all do something towards it...
I also agree with Petrus, A cage of our own making, running in we are, hmmm? {waggles pointy ears}
It's exactly like Occupy now; who are basically useless, because while they scream loudly at the corporate world about what victims they view themselves as being, any remote suggestion that they give up their mobile phones and try and develop a non-corporate form of telecommunications, will simply get you laughed at.
Just wait until the bankers themselves are living in tents, they will soon come around...
Let's face it, when TSHTF they will be the ones hardest hit, they will have absolutely no income, no means of generating anything, & no knoweledge of what to do next. If they are smart they will quit & buy a farm somewhere. 300 of them have done just that
They do not want a genuinely new scenario, because they still do not believe, fundamentally, that they have the ability to make beneficial decisions for themselves. They simply want a scenario where they can trust government and corporations to truly protect their interests, so they can go back to sleep. What they don't understand is that that will never happen, because the interests of government and corporations have very little in common with those of the general population.
Nail, head.So what do we do about that?
Quote from: petrus4 on 20-10-2012, 12:49:18
I am no longer really emotionally invested in this outcome, but I will say that if there are any people out there who want a more positive scenario than what the cabal will give them, then the most important thing to do to start, is realise that the only reason why the cabal are in power at all, is because that's what the majority WANT.
And when the majority do not you are in a position to change things democratically. To politically disengage is foolish and delays the transition.
Indeed.
It would take relatively few of us to tip things in the right direction, provided we have a fully worked out agenda that is transparent & free for all to read.And "laws" are keeping Them at bay? No, "laws" are not the answer. THEY will ignore US. You think movements are powerless, then?
No, I think that in the transition period apolitical movements are not powerful enough to usher in an era of abundance. That is the lesson I have learned for Amnesty, Greenpeace, CND and the sixties flower power movement generally. Noble aims but politically naive. I think that I have already made myself clear.
Yes, those organisations tended to ignore the political side.
They mainly concentrated making people aware of the problem, rather than with the solution (and by this i mean taking politics into account).
But they are still useful.
It's vitally important at this stage to present people with a solution. One that has been very carefully thought out.
I think we are capable of this, as are many similar sites working along the same lines.
Of course, any cohesive effort to push for TAP as a political goal will make us instant enemies overnight so,
softly softly, catchee monkey
Let's go full steam ahead on the awareness campaign, that still has to happen.
Keep people informed, show them results,
show them alternatives, ask them what they
think....
Openly discuss the politics of it, i tried once in the 'implications of free energy' thread, which has still been largely ignored.
That thread does what it says in the title, it discusses the
implications of it all. Political, social, economic.
Yes, Pim, we should learn from history
and become the 100th monkeyIf the actions of a single human can change the world (Hitler, Napoleon, Newton, Tesla) then what can a dedicated group of humans NOT do?
On the other hand, the right kind of political movement is the only one that will stop either a disaster or the cabal clinging to power for a lot longer. Unfortunately,you will be long dead before things move far unless a movement with the political nous and right principles to implement some of your ideas comes along.
Well, that's a bit dramatic, i think things will happen a lot sooner.
Greenpeace would join us, we could join Zeitgeist & so on, to become The Abundance Party
There are enough people with
similar thoughts, they just need to get to know each other.
The key question, which i can safely say is very much in our 'domain' is the application of free energy tech.
Build it, sell it, show it, give it away. build another.Alongside the machine needs to be the plan, the TAP intro letter, links, the whole shebang, all neatly wrapped up & presented to the peeps as a (more or less complete) package. If we don't do that, we will have serious problems.....
Everything is open sourced, so peeps can mess with it as they please, and no patents in sight.
They are abject failures. That is the lesson to take.
That I am convinced that you have not learned said lessons.
And I am convinced that You don't see that there is a vast difference between these movements in a scarcity paradigm, where a number of People feel threatened through money issues mainly, and The Abundance Paradigm, which threatens only power over Others but does not take away materially - and in fact provides vastly more for most.
Guys, we need to learn the leson that we do need to be politically active.
I signed a petition to release gravity technology, that was a political act, was it not, Amy?And we do have a vast difference--call it an edge over the competition--
we know what needs to be done.
Zorgon has embraced his dark side, or at least what I would usually interpret as darkness. I, on the other hand, keep the beast caged. That is the main reason why at times he has been capable of antagonising me to the extent that he does. His own example is forcing me to confront an element of my own nature (more than one, in fact) which I am not prepared to accept.
Yes, he does that rather well
Politics would be absolute moral suicide for me, Perhaps for you. That does not mean that all political change is a bad thing.
True enough.
Mark my words. Without a political move, the abundance paradigm is a pipe dream - probably for hundreds of years if not beyond an apocalypse.
I agree to disagree, although i think we may have only one crack at this, otherwise the transition may be delayed for centuries, or fail to happen at all.
I think it's worth fighting to give it a chance, we have nothing to lose, & a wonderful future to win.Maybe we won't live to see it happen, but it's our job to
get the ball rolling and we are not alone, as i pointed out earlier.
OK Amy tends to look maybe too far ahead, but we need to agree on a course of action NOW & deal with the finer points later.
If it means we have to wait centuries, then perhaps we do; but the reality is that most people simply do not want what we are offering. They have been taught not to want it. They have been taught that it cannot work to such a degree, that they are not prepared to try.
Then let us start by un-teaching them.
Hi Z, sharp & to the point as always
I agree (mostly) with your post,
So you justify yourself by saying they are wrong, they have been taught wrong and whatever. Your plan has three laws of compliance or they will be removed (as i understand it)
Kinda sounds like "My way or the highway"
Well you can
make it sound like that
I tend to say something like 'we don't have a choice, the current system is going down & it will take us all down with it'.
As i already stated, most people have already adopted these laws from their own free will. The only block is the scarcity paradigm & the power they still have over us, which is nothing more than fancy advertising gimmicks. Like that 'Obama Vs. Romney' show...
Missionaries work to a point. The Jesuits converted a LOT of people over the centuries... (mostly with fear and brute force ) Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons still send missionaries to my door. But Missionaries don't work very well on free thinkers And this board has a lot of those
And to build a new infra structure requires TONS of money, many manufacturers to give up time to make these new devices that everyone will get to use for free. Now I can envision a rich eccentric billionaire being so magnanimous to give all that away free... but he would still need a working model to mass produce.
You find the millionaire, we will build the machine
Well one thing is certain, while we debate the issue of cheap or free energy, the military industrialist are going full speed ahead using solar energy,synthetic fuel and oil and fusion power. So while we suffer THEY are making it happen for their own uses... and I see not one EG device being used by them to generate the AWESOME power that they produce. Easily enough to power the planet several times over
Bingo!
Gee. Could We all live like that? Or do We want to put Our energy into the system that lets Them live like that? If We can all live like that, why is it Our duty to "earn" it?
It is our duty to help others, & thereby ourselves.
Simple, isn't it?Shasta, i read that book, Asimov saw it too, & he had an answer for it.
Look at it another way, you would have the TIME to go & meet freinds while the robots do the laundry
Petrus, a great post.
As a CNC specialist, i agree you could automate nearly everything with a simple program that would not involve supercomputers, A.I. or laws of any kind (for robots).Just lots of sensors & a few subroutines like 'avoid squashing humans when working' stuff like that....
Asimov's thinking machines will have their own challenges, when (if) we get round to making them.
I have been able to write simple survival programs in basic for a model tank that allowed it to survive.
Of course, the more agressive it was, the better it survived.
Worked fine until they all turned on each other, the survival subroutine overcoming the friend/foe routine.
Fascinating to watch.....
You know... BEFORE that evil invention took over our lives people used to actually go OUT and meet each other at a coffee shop, or go to events, or parties... Now today they are all locked in their caves playing video games, dating via yahoo and wasting their life in endless hours in silly forums
Hear hear! {sips his rare malt whiskey}
I would vote you King, Z. Not because you own this site, or the naked ladies dancing (well maybe) but because you are intelligent, fair,attentive & humerous. All the right qualities for a leader
what a RUSH There is NO WAY a robot could experience that for us
True, just as it is my bliss to do incredibly dangerous things like work on live cables in a wet cellar or fix a valve on top of a 300 foot cooling tower.
No pesky robot is going to take THAT pleasure away from me.
I will allow him to carry my lunchbox & roll cigarrettes for me
When i'm not doing that i will be with Sky Otter, sitting on the porch LOL!
If You want to stay put and change nothing, You don't have to. BUT... People who presently are living in poverty, starving, working a jobs They hate because that's all They can get, can CHOOSE to live like They do in rich neighborhoods - if They want to - without HAVING to go to a job They hate, without pumping Their energy into the system which allows only SOME of Us to live richly.
Exactly, that's worth fighting for.
I have a choice of things to eat tomorrow, a choice of jobs, even.
Many humans don't even have those simple choices, so i'm rich, relatively speaking.
It is my bliss to fix machines, maintain factories, & build newer, better machines.
People have become to hate their very existence, serving this vast machine we call government.
So i guess our message is for
those of us who still have a choice, to help those who don'tAnd our message is also for those who
think they don't have a choice, when they doMost of all, our message is for people who do have a choice & are aware that they do.Maybe because They have to deal with the issues of the imposed scarcity paradigm...
Yes, and that's going to defeat itself. When people are cold & hungry, they will be very quick to take an alternative view, especially when it's been
seen to workAah, robots...
There are no dangers in using intelligent robots, providing they are well designed.
We are a long long way from making a sentient machine at this stage, it's a question for the future, not relevant now.
Besides, Asimov had all the robot problems covered way back when...
Did i miss anything?