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Author Topic: Intense scrutiny of the Economy and a Solution  (Read 10377 times)

Offline undo11

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Intense scrutiny of the Economy and a Solution
« on: November 25, 2012, 06:46:53 am »
Okay this will be a thread about the economy, mostly backed up by various videos and talks, presented by researchers of the liberal bent.  And a solution, mostly based on a conservative bent, but technically could be useful to both sides of the spectrum.   This is not going to be a shallow or short presentation so if you don't have alot of time, consider reading it when you do.   Make sure, however, to watch all the videos so you have the most thorough understanding of the topic before commenting on the solution provided at the end.

First, I thought it would be useful to present a video series of what actually happened when the stock market collapsed in 2008 (if you've already seen these 4 videos, skip to the next section). This is important because people need to be aware of the extent of damage transpiring to our economy which not only negatively impacts us, but people all over the world

part 1
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3CDGh4cXU0&feature=related[/youtube]

part 2
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nc11O7Efohs&feature=related[/youtube]

part 3
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSxl2fpU7uE&feature=relmfu[/youtube]

part 4
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3VgY1_PzUs&feature=relmfu[/youtube]
---------

Next, I thought it was relevant to this topic to show a video that explains the difference in quality of life and cost of living for the 2 parent, 2 child family in 1970 vs. 2007. (yep before the crash. it's a doozy. the lady is not the best public speaker but just give her time to make her case because this is all related to the solution.)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akVL7QY0S8A&feature=relmfu[/youtube]

The solution, as provided here, was dreamt up by my better half (my hubby).   I think it has real potential, so without further ado:

for every 5$ the employer gives the employee above minimum wage (regardless of race or gender or religion), the gov gives the employer 5$ in direct tax relief.   this causes the follow positive chain reaction:

1.  the employer is relieved of a sizeable chunk of his tax burden by deliberately paying his employees more money.

2.  the employee benefits because his income is going to go up dramatically, resulting in him refreshing the economy with new purchases.  increased income will also make it possible for him to, a) get a better education, b) open his own business, etc.  chain reaction with positive outcomes.

3.  the gov benefits from the additional purchases in the form of taxes paid on product purchases, and homes being bought and taxes paid on them, and new members being pushed into higher tax brackets, thereby providing more people capable of paying big amounts of taxes.  so the gov recoups all their losses with the added benefit of the people enjoying a higher quality of life as well.

4. to keep it from creating inflation, simply employ it as an emergency act, that can be rolled out and used to restart the economy when it suffers from poor decisions at the top. then keep it in place for 10-15 years to allow the building of new business and new jobs, so the homeless, houseless poor can get back on their feet, get educations, start businesses, as well.

5. make it conus only (continental usa) so that it encourages our jobs to come back home from overseas if they want tax breaks. they will have to decide if they want to continue hiring people and paying them slave labor wages overseas, or come home and be legit.

6. it solves the problems mentioned in the video by the lady who investigate 2 parent/2 child families, by giving couples the option to not have to both work if they don't want to.  this creates the "Safety net" she was talking about.

7. when our economy goes up, we start buying from foreign companies as well. and they start opening more businesses, and hiring their own people, and so on.

it solves, at first glance, every possible problem related to a poor economy.

what say you?



« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 07:19:18 am by undo11 »
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Offline Eighthman

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Re: Intense scrutiny of the Economy and a Solution
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2012, 07:15:24 am »
I read a great deal on sites like Business Insider and Seeking Alpha and I made and lost a huge pile of money in the '08 crash.

I haven't read a single pundit anywhere who's figured out what's gone wrong.  It's technology.

We are killing off jobs at a breathtaking rate with new technology. God help us if we ever develop a smart computer program that can replace retail employees at your local mall.  If job retraining programs actually worked, there'd be more of them and our problems would go away.   

Why did the Banksters offer loans to people that couldn't pay them? Because they couldn't find anything else worth investing in and got desperate.  It's part of an economy with a collapsing middle because we need fewer people to provide our needs.

The solution is technology that frees people from dependence on employment and centralized production.
We need free energy, 3-D printers and cheap broadband.

Offline undo11

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Re: Intense scrutiny of the Economy and a Solution
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2012, 07:25:47 am »
I read a great deal on sites like Business Insider and Seeking Alpha and I made and lost a huge pile of money in the '08 crash.

I haven't read a single pundit anywhere who's figured out what's gone wrong.  It's technology.

We are killing off jobs at a breathtaking rate with new technology. God help us if we ever develop a smart computer program that can replace retail employees at your local mall.  If job retraining programs actually worked, there'd be more of them and our problems would go away.   

Why did the Banksters offer loans to people that couldn't pay them? Because they couldn't find anything else worth investing in and got desperate.  It's part of an economy with a collapsing middle because we need fewer people to provide our needs.

The solution is technology that frees people from dependence on employment and centralized production.
We need free energy, 3-D printers and cheap broadband.

agreed.  but we also need our jobs back and a workable economic system.  see the problem is, if we don't have good, sustainable income, we can't buy products from anywhere, here there everywhere.   we directly and indirectly impact the economies of other nations because we represent a sizeable chunk of the purchasers. if we don't cash, we can't buy from overseas countries, which hurts their jobs and economies as well.

the only solution (besides more radical ones like amaterasu's) is to reinvigorate the employee-employer relationship.  we lost alot of jobs to cheap overseas labor, as well, and it ended up not benefitting them at all, cause we couldnt buy the products anyway, once our middle class was scavanged.   so i think in addition to tax relief and increase in pay, we need to add friendly small business interaction between the gov and the small business. poor people can't rise above their situation if they can't afford to become self-employed or have a good, useful education.

we also need a way to bypass wall street so they can't rip us off enmasse again, particularly since the gov refuses to regulate them.

did you watch the video of the lady in the thread here? the one called "the coming collapse of the middle class"?

i don't like the idea of just sitting here claiming some future utopia to be the answer, while millions of people are homeless and jobless and suffering not just in the usa, but all over the planet.   we need to at least fix our current problem
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 07:50:05 am by undo11 »
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Offline undo11

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Re: Intense scrutiny of the Economy and a Solution
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2012, 08:03:24 am »
for example, we lost our computer manufacturing base and its associated industries, to overseas cheap labor and other things as a result of things like nafta.   this is because the businesses had to pay so much in taxes, fees and permits, that it was no longer possible to pay union level wages and benefits and keep their board of directors and investors happy.  (and those boards are from all over the world.  we can't fix people's morals from other countries, we can only fix our own). 

so to get back our manufactuing base, we have to give the businesses a reason to come back.   the socialists in the democratic party keep claiming that the big corps are the problem but they don't want to solve the issue by making it lucrative once again, to have business here.   this is because the socialists have been working hard on making this a socialist country so the idea of people benefitting from working in businesses here, is the opposite of what they want.  they are trying to create a crises that will force us into asking for full out socialism and that can't be done if people are happy.   they need to relinquish their stranglehold on our economic system at least long enough for it to recover. making people suffer for long stretches of time, so you can usher in your own ideology, is insane.

in the plan outlined in my op, everyone benefits, even those who are on social programs.  it doesn't hurt anyone. it helps everyone. the overseas companies don't have to come back here, but they will not be discouraged from doing so and some will naturally gravitate back here.  the whole idea is a win-win for everyone, because although it may initially put some overseas people out of work, the increase in monies coming in from america, will allow their local businessmen to reopen their businesses.   then it's on their heads if they don't pay their employees decent wages.  maybe they could adopt the plan outlined in my op as well.  encourage your businesses to pay their employees more by giving them tax breaks for each additional 5 dollars paid. 



« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 08:22:38 am by undo11 »
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Offline Eighthman

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Re: Intense scrutiny of the Economy and a Solution
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2012, 08:21:27 am »
Allow me to elaborate.   Suppose somebody actually created a StarTrek style replicator?

After a little while, who would have a job anymore?  Only the guy who fixes it.  With Commander Data around, they don't even need the rest of the crew.

And that's the problem: our technology is creating lots of little 'replicators' - and soon, we may see high paying jobs in medicine go away if Jeopardy's "Watson" can offer diagnoses.  As it is,  your medical X-ray might be transmitted to a 3rd world country to be evaluated and quickly sent back to your hospital, to save money.

This elimination of jobs by technology is also why we have such problems with income inequality - a problem that exists even in more socialist nations.  The owners of technology benefit greatly but workers get laid off.

The future is more of the same and we need to prepare for it. 

Offline undo11

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Re: Intense scrutiny of the Economy and a Solution
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2012, 08:25:03 am »
Allow me to elaborate.   Suppose somebody actually created a StarTrek style replicator?

After a little while, who would have a job anymore?  Only the guy who fixes it.  With Commander Data around, they don't even need the rest of the crew.

And that's the problem: our technology is creating lots of little 'replicators' - and soon, we may see high paying jobs in medicine go away if Jeopardy's "Watson" can offer diagnoses.  As it is,  your medical X-ray might be transmitted to a 3rd world country to be evaluated and quickly sent back to your hospital, to save money.

This elimination of jobs by technology is also why we have such problems with income inequality - a problem that exists even in more socialist nations.  The owners of technology benefit greatly but workers get laid off.

The future is more of the same and we need to prepare for it.

Agreed!  but you don't appear to hear what i'm saying.  one more time with feeling

seems like a really good short term solution to me and could get people out of immediate danger. why anyone would resist the idea of employers paying their employees more money, is beyond me.  people are suffering.  solutions needed NOW. not 20 years from now, or 10 years from now.  N.O.W. lol 

as in, right away.  yesterday.  4 years ago!
nooooow.
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Offline undo11

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Re: Intense scrutiny of the Economy and a Solution
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2012, 08:33:31 am »
my kids have NO FUTURE.  they can't find jobs.
we currently can't afford to supply them with cars, gas and insurance, nor education costs.  and obama is adding 18 cents per gallon tax to gasoline with a potential of raising it as high as 10 $ per gallon.  they are driving us all into the poor house so they can socialize us, but the journey to get there is creating huge human disasters!

solutions needed immediately. not after somebody figures out how to convince the saudis that we are going to use free energy instead of their oil.  not after we go thru massive riots and deaths and depopulation plans.   

STAT! today! 
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Offline Eighthman

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Re: Intense scrutiny of the Economy and a Solution
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2012, 08:41:30 am »
OK, "immediate danger"  and "short term".  If that's enough for you, go in peace, yes.


and looking at Greece ( and the horror of Japan- which no one seems to be thinking about), how short term would this 'short term' be? 

Right now, the global economy looks like levitation in a Vegas magic act.  What holds the lady up? Ah, a trick...

Offline undo11

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Re: Intense scrutiny of the Economy and a Solution
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2012, 08:46:23 am »
well just sitting here and letting people suffer (and our suffering is amplified to other countries! do you understand??) so we can await some glorious future in which we don't have to do anything,
is probably the most lame a$$ solution i've ever heard!
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Offline Eighthman

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Re: Intense scrutiny of the Economy and a Solution
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2012, 09:06:41 am »
Call it whatever you wish, pejoratively, but there is no long term alternative, I can see.

If you think otherwise, then articulate one.  Otherwise, it's just emoting that goes nowhere.

The human race has suffered for millennia and will continue to do so until the means emerge to exist otherwise.  The idea of throwing money at our problems seems to be what Paul Krugman wants.  It's also part of the derided "Helicopter Ben" idea.

I wonder how much longer Keynes will be believed in by any of the Elite.

Offline undo11

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Re: Intense scrutiny of the Economy and a Solution
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2012, 09:12:35 am »
i don't even know who those people (keynes and krugman) are, and frankly, that's not the point anyway. it doesn't matter if you sleep with one foot on the floor or hang from the rafters or under the stars, the point is, we have a humanitarian disaster of epic proportions and people are shoving it down the road as if it will magically fix itself when free energy is finally introduced.  uh 10 dollar a gallon for gasoline, certainly doesn't sound like we're heading to any viable free energy solutions to me.
and since we've been talking about it for decades now and still don't have it, waiting for it to happen in the future and letting people suffer between now and then, is bonkers.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 09:24:25 am by undo11 »
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Offline Ellirium113

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Re: Intense scrutiny of the Economy and a Solution
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2012, 09:27:58 am »
Quote
for every 5$ the employer gives the employee above minimum wage (regardless of race or gender or religion), the gov gives the employer 5$ in direct tax relief.

Where does the $5 of tax relief come from? The taxpayer must provide that funding firstoff so it is nothing more than a circular charge back on to the taxpayer.

Quote
i don't even know who those people are, and frankly, that's not the point anyway. it doesn't matter if you sleep with one foot on the floor or hang from the rafters or under the stars, the point is, we have a humanitarian disaster of epic proportions and people are shoving it down the road as if it will magically fix itself when free energy is finally introduced.  uh 10 dollar a gallon for gasoline, certainly doesn't sound like we're heading to any viable free energy solutions to me.
and since we've been talking about it for decades now and still don't have it, waiting for it to happen in the future and letting people suffer between now and then, is bonkers.

Free energy I think will start off being strictly a utility service where they produce the free energy and then sell it to the consumer. The idea that some one will mass produce free energy devices to allow individuals to enjoy a better quality of life is nothing more than a pipe dream. This could have happened when Tesla was looking for funding to provide the world with free power and we all know how that went down. The internet is chock full of designs for magnetic generators, electric cars, super efficient batteries, cars that run on water, and all sorts of other things that already could have allowed the world to be better...where are they now?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 09:30:26 am by Ellirium113 »

Offline Eighthman

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Re: Intense scrutiny of the Economy and a Solution
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2012, 09:40:07 am »
Sorry, but if you don't know who Krugman or Keynes are (were), you shouldn't be arguing this subject at all. They deal - at great length- with the whole complex subject of economic stimulus.


If you would like a different approach (short term) consider this:  the Santa Barbara area has shale oil/gas greater than the Bakken by a factor of FOUR!  Then there's "Eagle Ford" and the deep Utica deposits.

 The US could be energy independent, slam-dunk - jobs, tax revenue, lower trade deficit.

Just imprison the "Green" types for a few years to get it done.

Offline 1Worldwatcher

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Re: Intense scrutiny of the Economy and a Solution
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2012, 09:44:45 am »
This all has been happening since the industrial age began. Rockefeller, Carnegie and Morgan. They were the gladiators of revolution and expanding this country with unseen speed and abilities ever before on the planet.
If it weren't for all three of them getting together, buying off McKinley ticket back to the Presidential seat, then instituting Theodore Roosevelt to Vice Presidency and then having McKinley  assassinated only after the elections and three of the worlds richest men trying to get people like Teddy R. off the possibility of becoming the president of the United States too protect their interests with in the Labor arguments and implications of a labor union to demand more money for their workers, this is all repeat scenario but more complicated due to the current set rise of world populations and the over zealous call for supply and demands.
Carnegie was the only one to seem "Bothered" by what was happening, and he sold out to J.P. Morgan for 480M (Which in todays markets would be equivalent too 4.8T, or 1% of the GNP) there are way too many things we "Don't" know about the closed door policies that are instilled with in such seats as the Presidency today.
What you are speaking of is similar too an act of "Gandhi" and his arbitrary demise of starvation to get his point across with good results for the Indies and between the Brit's, but all is lost with in the confines of that era of this debacle or dilemma we currently face.
Your ideology of what needs too be done is more than likely openly accepted by all who read it, but the true matter of the fact, as far as the "N.O.W." you so boldly put, this is not going to happen any faster than what Eighthman is presenting as a "Possible" outcome to the problem.
Ethics and morality are still a live, but the capitalism in this country and other countries, regardless of the Social agendas pertaining to each and every Government around the world, these will always be "Monetary Times" until something drastic happens to thwart such control and Capitalism, and not just here in the USA, it would have too be a global calamity of sorts to bring these ideas to the table as possibility.
Don't get me wrong, I understand your frustration, but as a collective insight as too what has too be done and what can be done, well, there in it's self Lie's the dilemma of true optimistic posterity for the average man/woman/child. I too see it happening as Eighthman had stated, though it may seem as if we are sitting on our hands when we should be doing something about it, we can only reverberate the ideals of what is right and what is wrong, not no real resolution. And why? Because we aren't Rockefeller's, Carnegie's or Morgan's. And I am sure if we were, we have a "Slight" chance of bringing these thoughts to fruition to better the world, as Carnegie was truly relieved when he sold out too Morgan because his guilt of the fact he was not really contributing to mankind, he was trying to be the big boy on the block, which he was, for a while. He was the richest man on earth during those times and would be richer than all top 1000 richest people today if it were recent.

1WW
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Offline undo11

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Re: Intense scrutiny of the Economy and a Solution
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2012, 09:55:58 am »
1ww

insightful post. thanks.
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