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Author Topic: Large Navies Are Now Obsolete  (Read 7389 times)

Offline The Seeker

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Re: Large Navies Are Now Obsolete
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2018, 08:58:02 pm »
http://www.thelivingmoon.com/forum/index.php?topic=754.msg6522#msg6522

from the above thread:posted in March,2012

"According to the Office of Naval Research, railguns mounted on ships would not only provide support for land missions, but also defend against missile strikes and deter adversaries.

The Navy said earlier this month that the railguns will initially have a range of between 57 and 115 miles, but the Navy is hoping to extend the range up to around 250 miles."

"The U.S. Navy announced Tuesday that it's testing a prototype of an electromagnetic railgun that can fire a 40-pound projectile at 5,600 miles per hour, which is more than seven times the speed of sound, the Associated Press reports."

This was from 5 years ago; considering the acknowledged tech gap between what is already in use versus what we are allowed to know about, there is a very good probability that some are already in use...

http://www.thelivingmoon.com/forum/index.php?topic=10688.msg140717#msg140717

Quote from above thread:

" Even so the United States Navy announced a test done on January 31, 2008 in order to equip their ships with this type of weapons."

This is what is publicly known about; the F4J Phantom jet had a fire control system in 1970 that could track and fire upon 28 different targets at the same time (48 years ago) including over the horizon targets  8)
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Offline ArMaP

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Re: Large Navies Are Now Obsolete
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2018, 05:16:13 am »
Large navies and large ships were the natural answer to the technological developments of the 19th century.

The appearance of the aeroplane changed things, as the big battle ships were relatively easy to destroy from the air, and so we saw the replacement of the big battle ships by the aircraft carrier.

New technologies will see new solutions, as usual, and, as usual, things don't change from one day to the other, they change gradually, even during a large scale war like WW2, as things have to be tested and money diverted to the new technology, which implies convincing the people that controls the money distribution. There are also always those that are against new technologies and that will try to keep things as they are, making the introduction of new technologies slower.

But all that is expected and natural, and has been like that since the first man that used a rock was able to win over a man that used only a stick. :)

Offline Eighthman

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Re: Large Navies Are Now Obsolete
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2018, 07:38:35 am »
http://www.snafu-solomon.com/2018/03/hypersonic-vehicles-from-around-world.html

India, Russia, China, the US - all developing hypersonic weapons.  The link shows comments expressing great skepticism that lasers will have any effect in fending them off.  Tracking and engagement have to be extremely fast. And hypersonics will be coated with ablatives and resistant materials by nature.

Lots of things look impressive (and expensive) but of what practical value?  MOAB bombs to impress the Taliban? Rail guns -sitting on a vulnerable platform?  50% of the F-35 fleet isn't operational.  And poorly trained, badly equipped insurgents in Afghanistan are winning a 17 year war.   

OTOH, I don't know what to make of the secret space program.  If real, does it grant any automatic dominance to the US?  Is it practical militarily?  Were flying triangles spotted above Ukraine a warning?

Offline zorgon

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Re: Large Navies Are Now Obsolete
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2018, 03:47:16 pm »
But all that is expected and natural, and has been like that since the first man that used a rock was able to win over a man that used only a stick. :)

THAT is how baseball was invented :P  Man with big stick hit rock back at you :P

Offline petrus4

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Re: Large Navies Are Now Obsolete
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2018, 06:11:04 am »
http://www.thelivingmoon.com/forum/index.php?topic=754.msg6522#msg6522

from the above thread:posted in March,2012

"According to the Office of Naval Research, railguns mounted on ships would not only provide support for land missions, but also defend against missile strikes and deter adversaries.

The Navy said earlier this month that the railguns will initially have a range of between 57 and 115 miles, but the Navy is hoping to extend the range up to around 250 miles."

Yep.  Quake 2 and 3 both had them, which I admit is the only place I know about them from; but even though we're talking about an FPS game, the two relevant characteristics of the gun were there.  An extremely fast moving projectile, capable of extreme range; but ironically a bit of a nuisance to use, because the size of the projectile is so small, relative to the size of the weapon itself.  It was very easy to miscalculate when aiming it.  It's like monofilament wire.  They were good for getting fast shots at very close range, and sniping if you knew how to sight properly.

I'm guessing you'll see railguns and plasma initially deployed as countermeasures to projectile-based weapons; missiles and such.  Plasma is ignited, pressurised hydrogen, directed as long bolts through a magnetic bottle.  Eventually you'll see hard projectile-based weapons become largely obsolete as an entire class, and everyone will move to plasma.  This is because plasma and rail are that much faster than missiles, that anyone who tries to stay with missiles will have them shot down before they can get close to their targets.

To the extent that it exists at all, Aquarian warfare will be about extremely small craft and objects, moving at very high speeds, and with very rapidly moving weapons, which like plasma will be analogous with lightning in some way.  They will be energy based.  Conflict will be between independent groups; the Westphalian nation state is not necessarily going to completely become obsolete, but it will eventually have newer decentralised groups and forms of social organisation which will reach comparable sizes.
"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburgers."
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Offline Eighthman

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Re: Large Navies Are Now Obsolete
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2018, 06:03:14 pm »
The fatal flaw was identified many years ago in a Scientific American article on Reagan's Star Wars tech.

Missiles must be tracked with radar - and not just detected, tracked.  Old Soviet radar could detect modern stealth planes but not track them with precision.   In addition, with hypersonic stuff, it may come down to seconds between detection and strike.  And Russia is building stuff that shifts position in flight. And China's DF-21 may come straight down on a carrier deck , together with kinetic energy that must be diverted, otherwise.....

I think anti-missile defense is silly.  The solution is smaller, expendable craft with more missiles - and mostly or entirely unmanned.

Offline ArMaP

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Re: Large Navies Are Now Obsolete
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2018, 06:31:38 pm »
Missiles must be tracked with radar - and not just detected, tracked.
The most effective action would be predicting the trajectory instead of tracking it, and that's where AI enters. A system that is capable of accurately predicting a missile's trajectory and is fast enough to adjust its calculations in real time, even if the missile changes direction will be able to intercept any missile.

Offline The Seeker

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Re: Large Navies Are Now Obsolete
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2018, 07:53:18 pm »
The fatal flaw was identified many years ago in a Scientific American article on Reagan's Star Wars tech.
How many years ago? You do realize that tech in general is advancing at the rate of roughly a year every month...

Quote
Missiles must be tracked with radar - and not just detected, tracked.  Old Soviet radar could detect modern stealth planes but not track them with precision.   In addition, with hypersonic stuff, it may come down to seconds between detection and strike.  And Russia is building stuff that shifts position in flight. And China's DF-21 may come straight down on a carrier deck , together with kinetic energy that must be diverted, otherwise.....
you seem to not consider that we have had the ability to track hypersonic objects(14,000-20,000mph) for a very long time...

Quote
I think anti-missile defense is silly.  The solution is smaller, expendable craft with more missiles - and mostly or entirely unmanned.
Do you have any sources of information besides what you read or see in a video? Jump on FB and run all this by John Lear  8) I am sure he would enjoy answering all your questions
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Offline ArMaP

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Re: Large Navies Are Now Obsolete
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2018, 01:47:05 am »
How many years ago? You do realize that tech in general is advancing at the rate of roughly a year every
Do you have any proof of that?

Offline The Seeker

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Re: Large Navies Are Now Obsolete
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2018, 02:19:11 am »
Do you have any proof of that?
Only what my sources share with me,ArMaP; but I will see if I can provide some verifiable examples  8) 8)
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Offline Eighthman

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Re: Large Navies Are Now Obsolete
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2018, 06:14:05 am »
https://www.livescience.com/61920-nuclear-russia-torpedo-cruise-missile-why.html

Surface skimming to avoid radar.  Extreme speeds and course changes to defeat tracking.  Use some minimal logic here - knocking down missiles will always be more difficult than hitting a target with them.

This arms race will be done in the context of permanent trillion dollar deficits (now projected) in the US - and with both China and Japan reducing holding of US debt.  Did the US bankrupt the Soviet Union?  Is turnabout fair play?

Offline The Seeker

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Re: Large Navies Are Now Obsolete
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2018, 04:12:41 pm »
Pay attention to what has already been deployed years ago, such as the Phalanx system, which have been operational for a long time. It has proven repeatedly to be highly effective against anything thrown at it, including Silkworm and Exocet missiles, not to mention several as you like to say 'hypersonic" interceptor missiles already well tested and battle proven in Uncle Sam's bag of tricks...

just because they are bragging about what they have newly developed does not mean that we don't have anything comparable if not significantly better

 ::)
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Offline Eighthman

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Re: Large Navies Are Now Obsolete
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2018, 05:33:18 pm »
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/the-us-navys-aegis-missile-defense-vs-russias-supersonic-kh-18662

"pay attention Indeed !"  The Navy is already worried and doesn't want to talk about it !  This isn't subsonic Exocets anymore.  Chaff use, close surface skimming, stealth as applied to missiles , in flight course changes,  reactive radar jamming.....

Hello ?

Offline The Seeker

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Re: Large Navies Are Now Obsolete
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2018, 06:27:11 pm »
Evidently you are a piss poor poker player; read all the disinfo and propaganda you want, but only  an utter fool would openly show the cards they are holding or admit what they have; most systems are deployed long before they ever become public knowledge or openly talked about  ::)

As a small example, how long were the F-117 Nighthawks operational before they saw combat? Over 10 years... Did you read or hear anything, even a slight hint of their existence before the Gulf War? 
Nope.

 ::)
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Offline No_Signal

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Re: Large Navies Are Now Obsolete
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2018, 08:51:52 pm »
Nobody is going to fire on a U.S. Naval vessel.

Oh, you sunk a battleship? Guess we'll relentlessly bomb your country into an oblivion for the next well.... until we get bored. We have weapons we WANT to test in battle. It's what we do. And America does it well.

 


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