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Author Topic: Intense scrutiny of the Economy and a Solution  (Read 10378 times)

Offline undo11

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Re: Intense scrutiny of the Economy and a Solution
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2012, 10:06:17 am »
Sorry, but if you don't know who Krugman or Keynes are (were), you shouldn't be arguing this subject at all. They deal - at great length- with the whole complex subject of economic stimulus.


If you would like a different approach (short term) consider this:  the Santa Barbara area has shale oil/gas greater than the Bakken by a factor of FOUR!  Then there's "Eagle Ford" and the deep Utica deposits.

 The US could be energy independent, slam-dunk - jobs, tax revenue, lower trade deficit.

Just imprison the "Green" types for a few years to get it done.

yikes. let's not call for imprisoning people. let's just use the op idea instead lol  the other issues would iron themselves out if the whole planet wasn't in perpetual poverty mode at the moment.
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Offline Eighthman

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Re: Intense scrutiny of the Economy and a Solution
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2012, 10:14:33 am »
By the way, I'm very eager to find a completely believable free energy to build out and freely recommend.

I've spent a lot of time on this but can't find anything credible or practical - although the Rossi and Correa devices seem believeable.

Oh, and the remark about imprisoning Greens.... I do realize that the Khemer Rouge disproved the idea that you can improve society if you just get rid of enough obstructing people.  If you just shoot people who annoy you, you'll never stop reloading.

We just have to get along.


Offline undo11

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Re: Intense scrutiny of the Economy and a Solution
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2012, 10:23:00 am »
By the way, I'm very eager to find a completely believable free energy to build out and freely recommend.

I've spent a lot of time on this but can't find anything credible or practical - although the Rossi and Correa devices seem believeable.

Oh, and the remark about imprisoning Greens.... I do realize that the Khemer Rouge disproved the idea that you can improve society if you just get rid of enough obstructing people.  If you just shoot people who annoy you, you'll never stop reloading.

We just have to get along.

agreed!   stalin did that whole reloading thing, just to keep the common folk in perpetual state of fear.
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Offline robomont

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Re: Intense scrutiny of the Economy and a Solution
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2012, 11:22:17 pm »
its the kilgore answer.this was all implimented under clinton as stimulas.
auction it all off now.i saw ten new oil drill rigs go for a hundred thou each in 86.
foreclose and auction fast.all homes before the rats and thieves get it all.it worked in kilgore,it will work for the nation.
otherwise its a race to the bottom.
also trade sanctions against china or we cut off food.
this will cause a trade war with asia starving itself to population reduction and economic destruction.we win either way.
our politicians planned this whole thing for a reason.
future war.biological warfare using invisable drones.jmho.
ive never been much for rules.
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Offline burntheships

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Re: Intense scrutiny of the Economy and a Solution
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2012, 11:37:54 pm »
Read your OP, and I hereby elect you to the economy recovery
team. The tax credit is especially on target.

Today, I listened to some goon on talk radio, and he ran on
about the short recession to befall us.....

 ::) And the lost decade to follow....oh I tell ya,
we need to fire them, all of em.
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Offline petrus4

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Re: Intense scrutiny of the Economy and a Solution
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2012, 12:19:15 am »
The solution is technology that frees people from dependence on employment and centralized production.
We need free energy, 3-D printers and cheap broadband.

What you are describing, Eighthman, is what I would consider a characteristic or symptom of the solution, but not what I would refer to as the solution itself.

I consider the solution to be decentralisation and individual sovereignty.  Individuals exhibiting these two characteristics render themselves completely immune to psychopathic influence; although they would, as you say, have free energy, 3D printers, and cheap broadband.  I will try to explain this in a little more detail, so it makes more sense.  In order to do this, I will first need to define some terms.

A wikipedia article defines a network as any system with sub-units that are linked into a whole.  I refer to each "sub-unit," or "point of presence," (such as a computer, in the case of the Internet, as a node.

My observation of engineering theory, is that the ideal way in which to build more or less anything, is not as a single unit, but as a connected network of individual nodes, functioning together simultaneously, or in parallel.  While it is apparently unavoidable that certain nodes within a given network are specialised, (as with organs in biological organisms) the ideal scenario is one in which nodes are as small, as simple, and as generic in design as possible.  This maximises redundancy, robustness, and (usually) speed and ease of deployment.

This is also the reason why I am in strong opposition to the idea of a centralised global government; I simply consider any form of monolithic centralisation (which is what government is) to be an inherently non-robust and usually psychopathic design.  Nature, in my own opinion, is (for the most part, although there are exceptions, as mentioned) broadly speaking a decentralised network which optimises and specialises at the per-node level.  You have a lot of different species of tree, as one example, but you don't generally have (at least as far as I know) a hierarchy of trees in which one or two kinds of trees are considered more important than all the rest.

The problem with centralisation, is that it implies per-node specialisation, which in turn lessens redundancy.  What I mean by this is, that if you have ten nodes in a network which are all doing the same thing, and one node is destroyed, then while the network might have lost 10% of capacity, it can still continue to function.  If, on the other hand, you have nine nodes all performing the same task, and a tenth performing a unique task which the other nine cannot perform, then if that tenth node is destroyed, the capability to perform the given task is permanently lost to the entire network.

So to bring that analogy into the real world, if you have a scenario where 90% of the public are not politicians, and only 10% are, then you have a scenario where only 10% of the total population, is capable of performing a particular set of tasks; and in this case, these are usually the most crucial tasks required by the society.

My own ideal solution for world government, to the extent that it must exist at all, would be based on the original non-commercial, non-psychopathic model which was relevant to the Internet prior to 2000.  In that case, the Internet's overall government was said to be the Internet Engineering Task Force.

However, the thing to understand about this group, is that they did not hold final jurisdiction over each individual node in the network.  Their governmental power primarily concerned the technical protocols which the network itself used; their maintenance and technological advancement, and the writing of standards which individual nodes were expected to adhere to.  Although again, AFAIK, there was no method available for the hard enforcement of specifications, and occasional, local deviations from particular standards did exist.  Usually the network was sufficiently robust (in the early days, before the influence of the psychopathic corporate world arrived) that these deviations could be taken in stride.

Thus, the Internet Engineering Task Force was a Technocracy in the truest possible sense of that word; and although Pimander and I have seemed to disagree about the need for a global government in the past, I am willing to concede that if (and only if) said government consisted solely of scientists who were genuine experts in their field of relevance, and if their role was largely advisory (but still adhered to) only, and generally without recourse to direct, deadly force, then I would be in full agreement with such a scenario being implemented.

This is also, it is worth pointing out, what is described as the ideal form of government via the Varnashrama Dharma, commonly known as the caste system.  Namely, a scenario where the Brahmana (priest and scientist) caste ruled, with the Kshatriya (kings and military) served as subordinates to them. 

Before you object to this, understand that the caste is not observed with real fidelity in India.  Contemporary Indians adhere to the practice that caste positions are hereditary.  Contemporary Indians also hold that the caste is a form of elitism (which created the mess that Gandhi made public, with the Dalits or untouchables) whereas the real purpose of the caste, was as a form of natural social self-organisation, where each individual became a member of the four necessary subdivisions of society, in a manner consistent with their temperament.  In this way, the society made optimal use of the potential contributions of every individual, by working to ensure that every individual always did the work for which his own nature suited him.
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Offline undo11

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Re: Intense scrutiny of the Economy and a Solution
« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2012, 03:02:16 am »
Where does the $5 of tax relief come from? The taxpayer must provide that funding firstoff so it is nothing more than a circular charge back on to the taxpayer.

sorry missed your post elli.

the difference is that it encourages business owners to pay their employees higher wages, in some cases two or three times what they are currently making.  this makes it possible for them to create their own businesses and advance their own educations, making room in their current job slot for new employees. 

one problem currently is that guys with degrees and highly skilled craftsman are working at mcdonalds and so forth.  as a result, the gov is missing out on being able to tax their skills to the degree it could when they had a job befitting their abilities and education.

 to leverage that vacancy and lack of tax base,  the people who are making enough money to be taxed at all, are having to absorb the increase  and in many cases, those people are working at jobs that are barely above the first and lowest tax bracket.  that has a detrimental effect on the lowest paid workers in the country.

 so if they receive 2-3 times or more, their original pay,  suddenly they have new opportunities, it's easier for them to pay their taxes and the gov can receive more taxes from them that they can actually afford to pay. 

businesses thrive on cash flow, which this shares a similar premise with.  because cash flow allows the business and the employee, to have more options available to them.  cash in hand is a valuable commodity. 

the more people in the work force paying taxes, the more the gov makes in taxes, even though it is initially subsidizing the cost by giving tax breaks to business owners who pay their employees higher wages.   

so i don't think the tax payer is going to suffer as a result, because there will be more people paying taxes to leverage that. it may seem circular but the difference is 1) increased cash flow, therefore opportunity and 2) more businesses, making more jobs, giving people who are on the street, living in tent cities, etc, the chance to get jobs and get back on their feet.

most importantly, it redirects huge sums of money down the money chain to the people with the least amount of money in the work force, who are currently carrying most of the tax burden that was originally carried by middle class jobs that have evaporated.

increases in energy costs and gasoline prices are attempts to leverage that vacancy in tax base, as well, making it even harder for people in low paying jobs to even justify working away from home.  this would resolve all that.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2012, 03:21:37 am by undo11 »
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Offline zorgon

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Re: Intense scrutiny of the Economy and a Solution
« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2012, 03:20:26 am »
Money Money Money...

In the year 2009 the fed Reserve could not account for 9 TRILLION dollars for that fiscal year alone.

Every year the DoD cannot account for 1.3 to 2.3 TRILLION dollars

There are 311,800,000 (as of  mid-2011) Of those less than half are tax payers

So can someone get out a calculator and figure out how much money is missing and co relate that to actual tax revenue?  That 9 trillion alone is about 30,000 for every man woman and child in the USA

So it would seem that the math doesn't work out to well here :D #0,00 a year is more than most people make in a year these days  they are certainly not paying that much in taxes  and that is only the unaccounted for money, not the daily operational expenses of a government that has more than 120 SPOOK agencies spying on you on your dime


Offline zorgon

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Re: Intense scrutiny of the Economy and a Solution
« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2012, 03:23:04 am »

My observation of engineering theory, is that the ideal way in which to build more or less anything, is not as a single unit, but as a connected network of individual nodes, functioning together simultaneously, or in parallel.  While it is apparently unavoidable that certain nodes within a given network are specialised, (as with organs in biological organisms) the ideal scenario is one in which nodes are as small, as simple, and as generic in design as possible.  This maximises redundancy, robustness, and (usually) speed and ease of deployment.

Yeah Star Trek showed us the ideal society.... all about nodes...  they called them the BORG  :D

Offline undo11

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Re: Intense scrutiny of the Economy and a Solution
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2012, 03:23:47 am »
z

as regards your money money money post....

what's your point?  :D
i'm sure you have one, but i can't figure it out atm.  so speak plainly and directly. :D

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Offline petrus4

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Re: Intense scrutiny of the Economy and a Solution
« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2012, 04:29:55 am »
Yeah Star Trek showed us the ideal society.... all about nodes...  they called them the BORG  :D

I'm not a transhumanist, Zorgon.  What I'm talking about exists in nature, and does so in more than just explicitly eusocial (hive-based) social structures.
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Offline 1Worldwatcher

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Re: Intense scrutiny of the Economy and a Solution
« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2012, 09:11:18 am »
Quote
Undo11 Wrote:
as regards your money money money post....what's your point?

I think he is referring too the fact that there is literally billions of dollars unaccounted for with in the US economy and expenditure's behind the scene, this is something, that if allocated and found too what, where and when it was used, would be beneficial too the typical American Citizen other than using it for mundane experimental a secrecy type of investments.
In his post he had requested for someone "With a calculator" too figure it all out from the time span of 2009 until this fiscal year, it would be enough to not only help out the American people, but be better spent by giving these lost monies back to the origins it had spawned from...IMHO Undo.
And he is right, if you go back farther in the history of the USA financial governmental affiliations, you would find that there are literally trillions and Trillions of dollars that remain unaccounted for, Sad but true.
Mundane investments create a kind of smoke and mirror's for the PTB too acclimate the funds too any resource they deem "Adequate to their cause" and never get discovered for doing so. If you remember the "$2K gold hammer" incident some time back, well these events only go to prove that there is misappropriations of funds happening all the time and being covered up for r the true whereabouts of the funds honestly too the American people.
My earlier post mentioning the Rockefeller's, Morgans and Carnegie's is exactly what had gotten the government smarter as to get the right running candidates to benefit their desired wants and needs, once a politician, always a politician as it is justly stated. If it weren't for the Assassination of McKinley and these richest men in the world paying off the proper people to get Roosevelt placed into the office of V.P. they new that Teddy was a man of the people and didn't want that too happen due to the Millions of dollars of pay off that went on behind closed doors back then for elected officials too come to the light of day, it was corrupt back then, and it is still corrupt today Undo11, as you well know.
Just think, Carnegie, when he decided to sell out to J.P. Morgan got the sum of $480M, that is equivalent to approximately $4.8 trillion in todays market, this translates into approximately 1% of the GNP of our entire country today, that is almost unbelievable, and if it weren't for history having such a great record of what had taken place back then, and it went all the way through the Teddy Roosevelt Admin. to the supreme court to fight for workers rights and higher earned incomes, we would still be there today.
Only takes a very important person one time to make the right move for our country, but legacy after bad legacy has left this possibility little more than just as it was from where we are right at this moment "A wish" and remains as thus.
We will never know everything as it truly is with current state of affairs, but we can always "HOPE" that someone, sometime will come out with the facts of what  has happened with in our Governments ability to not only be honest, but straight forward with mistakes and correctly deal with these events as a lesson learned, not an embarrassment that needs too be covered up.

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Offline undo11

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Re: Intense scrutiny of the Economy and a Solution
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2012, 10:00:18 am »
1ww

well we have to get them to do something cause there are a heckuvalot of people without jobs, homes or food at the moment. 
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Offline robomont

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Re: Intense scrutiny of the Economy and a Solution
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2012, 12:01:21 pm »
im with z on the lost money.
then lets add up all the silver and gold coins that have been turned into fillings and jewelery,all the child swallowed a coin,storm drains,collectors moneys that are out of circulation,secret stashes,house fires,over the last hundred years.
thats a few billion.

then lets talk about trillions.
thats one million millionaires per trillion.
there are not alot of reliable places to invest after you add in inflation.
thats why i think the stockmarket is a scam controlled by the gov.i think it is purposefully manipulated through high speed trades to suck investors dry slowly.
look at all the pension funds that have dried up and yet paul ryan wants us youngers to invest our ss money in this scam as the economy goes in the dump.
sounds like another billionaire bailout on the backs of the youth.

inflation?
if we give everybody a raise then the landlord will want more money.
wheelbarrows of money for a loaf of bread.
ive never been much for rules.
being me has its priviledges.

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Offline undo11

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Re: Intense scrutiny of the Economy and a Solution
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2012, 01:52:50 pm »
already mentioned that. to avoid inflation you only roll it out when the economy has been trashed. keep it in place for about 10-15 years, and make sure everyone knows that, and then taper it back off  again. it's just to kick start the job market and economy, which is driven by the middle class.
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