Pegasus Research Consortium

Breaking News => Breaking News => Topic started by: A51Watcher on August 05, 2016, 09:00:03 pm

Title: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: A51Watcher on August 05, 2016, 09:00:03 pm
The Juno probe has sent back time- lapse home movies from it's arrival at Jupiter!!  8)  8)  8)


[youtube]dg2G8iT4Xpg[/youtube]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg2G8iT4Xpg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg2G8iT4Xpg)
 

Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: A51Watcher on August 06, 2016, 05:40:53 pm


I note that the first and second moons display smooth circular orbits, while the third and fourth moon in particular, display an odd jumping up and down during their orbits.

I will be very interested to hear what forces of celestial mechanics are causing this.

Is it a gyroscopic effect from the spinning moons, or leftover orbital waves from when it fought capture by Jupiter? 

Hmmm  8)


Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: funbox on August 06, 2016, 05:56:31 pm
is it me or are those moons blinking ? what would cause such loses in magnitude as they orbit Jupiter ?

funbox
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: A51Watcher on August 06, 2016, 06:19:28 pm
is it me or are those moons blinking ? what would cause such loses in magnitude as they orbit Jupiter ?

funbox

Well they all blink when they eclipse, but the 4th one blinks in places where it should not, i.e. other than behind Jupiter from the sun.

So yes that is odd as well.

And yeah the 3rd one blinks a lot as well.


Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: funbox on August 06, 2016, 06:25:48 pm
Well they all blink when they eclipse, but the 4th one blinks in places where it should not, i.e. other than behind Jupiter from the sun.

So yes that is odd as well.

there also seemed to be a little light follow parallel to the top edge of the screen, it comes into view as the rocket banks slightly.. something in earth orbit , but to me it looks like its movements is more than rocket menouevers..

ill get the time code..2:20 onwards to 3:04 when the graphic appears

funbox
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: A51Watcher on August 06, 2016, 06:50:43 pm
Yeah the one that moves left for a bit then goes downward.

Probably just ice crystals!  ;)  ;D


eta: Maybe that blinking is other planets closer in to the sun getting in their way to the sunshine?

Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: ArMaP on August 07, 2016, 05:49:24 am
The blinking is strange, could it be the result of the rotation of the moons?
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: funbox on August 07, 2016, 09:10:58 am
The blinking is strange, could it be the result of the rotation of the moons?

doubtfull , how does rotation effect reflectivity ? ide like to say it part of the camera's setting , but it would be noticeable on Jupiter too, but im not seeing it

have they proffered an explanation yet ?

funbox
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: ArMaP on August 07, 2016, 10:05:29 am
doubtfull , how does rotation effect reflectivity ?
If the moon's surface is not all the same it will have different reflectivity (I think albedo is the right word) in different areas.

Quote
ide like to say it part of the camera's setting , but it would be noticeable on Jupiter too, but im not seeing it
I thought of that too, slight changes in the camera settings could make a difference, specially in the more dim objects, while Jupiter would remain mostly the same.

Quote
have they proffered an explanation yet ?
Anyone asked?
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: A51Watcher on August 07, 2016, 06:26:20 pm
Since this first footage was interrupted for whatever reason, I am hoping we will get continuous footage of the moon's orbits in the weeks to come.

(http://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/styles/full_width/public/thumbnails/image/orbits_diagram_apojove0feature_0.jpg?itok=0Pkx7nBw)

The imaging will have to begin right away, since the Junocam is the only instrument not inside the titanium protection box that houses all the other science instruments from the intense amounts of radiation present.

The Junocam is expected to fail mid- february due to this radiation.

Also these first two 53 day orbits are our only opportunity for wide angle shots. 

The 14 day orbits may not be able to get all 4 moons in frame -


[youtube]y8KuqumqBgM[/youtube]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8KuqumqBgM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8KuqumqBgM)


[youtube]SgEsf4QcR0Q[/youtube]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgEsf4QcR0Q (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgEsf4QcR0Q)



Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: A51Watcher on August 08, 2016, 02:59:48 pm
Ahh! Good news!

"Juno's camera -- JunoCam -- also was shut down during orbit insertion, but it is back in action, taking long-distance shots that will be combined into a so-called "marble movie."

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/juno-heads-back-toward-jupiter-instruments-at-the-ready/ (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/juno-heads-back-toward-jupiter-instruments-at-the-ready/)


During the post orbital insertion news conference the mission director responded to a question about any surprises by saying the outer moon appeared much dimmer than they expected, and plan to investigate.

But no mention of the odd oscillations we see during orbit.

In watching the tracer sequence the oscillations remind me of oscilloscope display patterns, or even a heart beat monitor.

Even the first moon with the most smooth orbit of all, still displays some slight oscillations as well, with each moon outward displaying this same behaviour more pronounced the further they are away from Jupiter.     

eta: So is gravity restraining their urge to jump around or the root cause of it?

Still waiting on an explanation for this.


Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: funbox on August 08, 2016, 03:06:28 pm
Ahh! Good news!

"Juno's camera -- JunoCam -- also was shut down during orbit insertion, but it is back in action, taking long-distance shots that will be combined into a so-called "marble movie."

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/juno-heads-back-toward-jupiter-instruments-at-the-ready/ (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/juno-heads-back-toward-jupiter-instruments-at-the-ready/)


During the post orbital insertion news conference the mission director responded to a question about any surprises by saying the outer moon appeared much dimmer than they expected, and plan to investigate.

But no mention of the odd oscillations we see during orbit.

In watching the tracer sequence the oscillations remind me of oscilloscope display patterns, or even a heart beat monitor.

Even the first moon with the most smooth orbit of all, still displays some slight oscillations as well, with each moon outward displaying this same behaviour more pronounced the further they are away from Jupiter.     

Still waiting on an explanation for this.

maybe Jupiter is emitting something to cause this variation, I need to look at this again to see , but did you notice any timing between the moons brightness,.. synchronisation etc etc ? maybe even tapping out a tune :D

funbox
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: A51Watcher on August 08, 2016, 03:17:28 pm
maybe Jupiter is emitting something to cause this variation, I need to look at this again to see , but did you notice any timing between the moons brightness,.. synchronisation etc etc ? maybe even tapping out a tune :D

funbox

I am going to knock out an enlarged version centered on the fourth moon with tracers to see what shows.

So far every look at Jupiter all the way through it appears steady as she goes.

So nothing obvious as to what's causing it.

As the mission director put it, until now.. we have only been able to imagine celestial harmonic motion, or create computer simulations, but now seeing an actual look at it in motion is quite another thing.

Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: funbox on August 08, 2016, 03:17:42 pm

I thought of that too, slight changes in the camera settings could make a difference, specially in the more dim objects, while Jupiter would remain mostly the same.

did you find it odd that at 5:53 in the video the exposure goes through the roof to the point where the moons are leaving trails.. but I wont call it smoke just yet :D

funbox

Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: funbox on August 08, 2016, 03:23:12 pm
I am going to knock out an enlarged version centered on the fourth moon with tracers to see what shows.

So far every look at Jupiter all the way through it appears steady as she goes.


should be interesting .. whilst you in your video suite , drop in a filter after 5:53 , see if they've tried to disguise the blinking with overexposure :D

let me know , ill do a full rendering if it turns out to be true

share the load like :D

funbox

Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: ArMaP on August 08, 2016, 03:52:23 pm
did you find it odd that at 5:53 in the video the exposure goes through the roof to the point where the moons are leaving trails.. but I wont call it smoke just yet :D
Yes, I noticed that, but as I don't have any information about how the video was made or how the camera works I didn't comment on that.
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: funbox on August 08, 2016, 04:11:10 pm
I wonder why they thought to adjust it, the initial exposure was fine , I could almost make out rings.

and how did they do so , given the lag in time ?

and why change it to a terrible setting , given that they had visual feedback to decide on an adjustment?

just seems a little co incidental, we see  unobserved behaviour in the Jupiter system, and suddenly the camera operator returns to pre school ..way to spam them buttons and hope nasa :D

funbox


Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: A51Watcher on August 08, 2016, 04:51:59 pm
I wonder why they thought to adjust it, the initial exposure was fine , I could almost make out rings.

and how did they do so , given the lag in time ?

and why change it to a terrible setting , given that they had visual feedback to decide on an adjustment?

just seems a little co incidental, we see  unobserved behaviour in the Jupiter system, and suddenly the camera operator returns to pre school ..way to spam them buttons and hope nasa :D

funbox


Actually that over exposed segment is identical to other clips, so I don't think it's a cam operator error.

I got that from a news program about Juno and included it, not sure if NASA did it or not.

Somebody got creative with the raw clips and did that so we could observe the light trails left behind as well as the dark ones.

That's what makes the orbits stand out so clearly.

It's my favorite clip.  8)





Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: funbox on August 09, 2016, 10:19:01 am
Actually that over exposed segment is identical to other clips, so I don't think it's a cam operator error.

I got that from a news program about Juno and included it, not sure if NASA did it or not.

Somebody got creative with the raw clips and did that so we could observe the light trails left behind as well as the dark ones.

That's what makes the orbits stand out so clearly.

It's my favorite clip.  8)

ahh ok , the usual confusion from Nasa then , cause a simple title was just too telling :D

should expect it really

funbox
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: A51Watcher on August 09, 2016, 10:42:06 am
ahh ok , the usual confusion from Nasa then , cause a simple title was just too telling :D

should expect it really

funbox

My fault really. I threw it in the middle there and didn't know what to title it - 'unknown processor footage?'

The news program didn't title it is the primary problem. I'm sure it will come out eventually.

Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: A51Watcher on August 09, 2016, 12:19:43 pm


I searched around for all the best hi- res clips I could find for the OP video, and found the one with tracers at 8:30 here -


[youtube]kPrE6KIUtto[/youtube]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPrE6KIUtto (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPrE6KIUtto)


Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: funbox on August 09, 2016, 01:12:41 pm
My fault really. I threw it in the middle there and didn't know what to title it - 'unknown processor footage?'

The news program didn't title it is the primary problem. I'm sure it will come out eventually.

ahh , I thought it was something edited by Nasa's PR team , fair enough , at least we know that there's been no shenanigans.

I think .. :D

funbox
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: A51Watcher on August 11, 2016, 12:49:09 am


[youtube]VlXR2XeHIcc[/youtube]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlXR2XeHIcc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlXR2XeHIcc)


Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: funbox on August 11, 2016, 10:31:54 am

[youtube]VlXR2XeHIcc[/youtube]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlXR2XeHIcc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlXR2XeHIcc)

where does the unusuality lie here then ?
bar them trails :D
funbox

Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: A51Watcher on August 17, 2016, 08:05:50 pm


Well NASA's current thinking on Calisto based on previous probe scans is that it does not have an iron core.

That rules out the theory of magnetic forces battling with gravitic forces causing the odd jumping up and down seen in it's orbit.

Still no word from NASA on what's causing this.  ::)


Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: Pimander on August 18, 2016, 04:16:19 am
Still no word from NASA on what's causing this.  ::)
That's because they would have to guess. ::)
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: A51Watcher on August 22, 2016, 08:49:35 pm


"Arguments for an ocean came from two pieces of evidence, according to NASA.

First, scientists saw regular fluctuations of Callisto's magnetic field as the moon circled Jupiter, which implied there were electrical currents within the moon stimulated by the planet's magnetic field.

That current had to conduct from somewhere, which led to the second piece: due to the rocky surface and thin atmosphere, a likely explanation would be a salty ocean under the moon's surface."


http://www.space.com/16448-callisto-facts-about-jupiters-dead-moon.html (http://www.space.com/16448-callisto-facts-about-jupiters-dead-moon.html)




Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: funbox on August 23, 2016, 02:46:41 am
there seems to be no reference to the blinking , is there no where else on the net where it has been referred to ?

funbox
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: ArMaP on August 23, 2016, 05:32:05 am
there seems to be no reference to the blinking , is there no where else on the net where it has been referred to ?
From what I have seen, the problem with the video is that any person can make a video with the photos NASA published, and they even asked for people to do that, so what we are seeing is somebody's work done with the official photos. You can download the original photos and see for yourself or make your own video. :)

The official photos are here (https://www.missionjuno.swri.edu/junocam/processing).
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: A51Watcher on August 24, 2016, 10:10:05 am
there seems to be no reference to the blinking , is there no where else on the net where it has been referred to ?

From what I have seen, the problem with the video is that any person can make a video with the photos NASA published, and they even asked for people to do that, so what we are seeing is somebody's work done with the official photos. You can download the original photos and see for yourself or make your own video. :)

The official photos are here (https://www.missionjuno.swri.edu/junocam/processing).

Well let's have a look see then. Here are the official photos from the site you linked, strung together as a movie with no processing performed, display frame rate is 15 fps -

APPROACH MOVIE PROCESS LEVEL 1
2016-06-12 00:10 UT
 NASA / SwRI / MSSS
© PUBLIC DOMAIN
Mission Phase : MOVIES
All images were cropped to 800 x 400 pixels (width x height) and color-registered.  No form of contrast-enhancement was applied to these images.  No partial images were processed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lU9ap0aXwI


APPROACH MOVIE PROCESS LEVEL 2
2016-06-12 00:10 UT
 NASA / SwRI / MSSS
© PUBLIC DOMAIN
Mission Phase : MOVIES
All images were cropped and enhanced to 1280 x 720 resolution (width x height) and rotated to a North-up orientation. Contrast-enhancement was applied for moon visibility, along with noise removal and correct color registration.  No partial images or images with a TDI of 1 were processed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkNguBHdCMs


Nasa did say at the news conference that Callisto has a lower Albedo than expected and they will be investigating that.

So we do still see blinking on the official photos (use the slow motion option on the youtube player if it is not apparent), with the Contrast-enhancement done by Nasa .

And of course the wobbling is still there.



 
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: Pimander on August 24, 2016, 01:02:49 pm
If the pulsing of the moons is synchronised then I would suggest it is caused by a fluctuating magnetic field. Perhaps magnetic fluorescence of the moons atmospheres or even interference with the camera.

Has this effect been observed by multiple cameras from other missions?

If the moons are pulsing out of synch then I don't have a clue. :)
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: ArMaP on August 24, 2016, 02:23:54 pm
Blinking and wobbling confirmed, trails not confirmed.

Thanks. :)
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: A51Watcher on August 24, 2016, 09:21:15 pm
If the pulsing of the moons is synchronised then I would suggest it is caused by a fluctuating magnetic field. Perhaps magnetic fluorescence of the moons atmospheres or even interference with the camera.

Has this effect been observed by multiple cameras from other missions?

If the moons are pulsing out of synch then I don't have a clue. :)

Yeah there does not appear to be any sync to the pulsing. quite odd.


Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: A51Watcher on August 24, 2016, 09:25:22 pm
Blinking and wobbling confirmed, trails not confirmed.

Thanks. :)

Yeah I don't think anyone was confused thinking the moons were on fire. ;^)

The persistence of vision effect is quite useful in charting for heartbeat monitors and for moon's orbits as well it turns out.

Quite a huge wobble there.

Closer moons have less, outer moons have more. So as Jupiter's gravity has less hold, some other counter force is is displaying more hold.

   
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: A51Watcher on August 24, 2016, 09:29:14 pm


I think the  fluctuations of Callisto's magnetic field as the moon circled Jupiter, which implied there were electrical currents within the moon stimulated by the planet's magnetic field, is the best clue so far.

It's magnetic field doing battle with Jupiters is what I am looking towards.


 
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: Pimander on August 25, 2016, 01:48:19 am

I think the  fluctuations of Callisto's magnetic field as the moon circled Jupiter, which implied there were electrical currents within the moon stimulated by the planet's magnetic field, is the best clue so far.

It's magnetic field doing battle with Jupiters is what I am looking towards.
I'd like to see whether Jupiter's rings are doing the same thing...
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: ArMaP on August 25, 2016, 02:22:39 am
Yeah I don't think anyone was confused thinking the moons were on fire. ;^)
You never know, I've seen stranger opinions on the Internet. ;D

Quote
Closer moons have less, outer moons have more. So as Jupiter's gravity has less hold, some other counter force is is displaying more hold.
I suppose the other moons can interfere with one moon's orbit, but not that much.
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: Pimander on August 25, 2016, 03:52:27 am
If this can't be seen around other planets, it's worth trying to work out what makes Jupiter unique among planets....
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: funbox on August 25, 2016, 04:15:44 am
If this can't be seen around other planets, it's worth trying to work out what makes Jupiter unique among planets....

has this blinking behaviour been observed from earth? has no one filmed as much footage of Jupiter from earth yet ? even a short cycle might catch dips in magnitude,


funbox
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: Pimander on August 25, 2016, 04:26:43 am
has this blinking behaviour been observed from earth? has no one filmed as much footage of Jupiter from earth yet ? even a short cycle might catch dips in magnitude,
Good question.  I don't know the answer.
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: funbox on August 25, 2016, 04:50:33 am
nor me , but given the amount of telescopes on the planet , you would have thought they would have tried solving the enigma of the Jovian moons of Jupiter, the orbits being a bit of a mathematicians nightmare for century's.. im thinking  huge amounts of time lapse would be useful in arranging the formula .. but then this is quite a new angle of observance :D

tic tic

funbox

Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: ArMaP on August 25, 2016, 12:07:08 pm
has this blinking behaviour been observed from earth?
I doubt it, Jupiter's satellites are visible to the naked eye when Jupiter is closer to Earth.

This is a photo I took some years ago.

(http://www.thelivingmoon.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/Jupiter.jpg)

Edited to add that I used only my camera, no telescope.
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: A51Watcher on September 07, 2016, 10:05:27 pm

So here's wiki's explanation of Callistos 'orbital eccentricity' -

Quote
"Orbit and rotation

Callisto is the outermost of the four Galilean moons of Jupiter. It orbits at a distance of approximately 1 880 000 km (26.3 times the 71 492 km radius of Jupiter itself).[2] This is significantly larger than the orbital radius—1 070 000 km—of the next-closest Galilean satellite, Ganymede.

As a result of this relatively distant orbit, Callisto does not participate in the mean-motion resonance—in which the three inner Galilean satellites are locked—and probably never has.[10]

Like most other regular planetary moons, Callisto's rotation is locked to be synchronous with its orbit.[3]

The length of Callisto's day, simultaneously its orbital period, is about 16.7 Earth days.

Its orbit is very slightly eccentric and inclined to the Jovian equator, with the eccentricity and inclination changing quasi-periodically due to solar and planetary gravitational perturbations on a timescale of centuries.

The ranges of change are 0.0072–0.0076 and 0.20–0.60°, respectively.[10] These orbital variations cause the axial tilt (the angle between rotational and orbital axes) to vary between 0.4 and 1.6°.[27]"

So now that we have arrived there with camera in hand, it is obvious the Callisto's orbit is much more than 'very slightly eccentric'.

Current knowledge and theories need some serious amending.

Perhaps being in the region of radial current vs direct current has some bearing on the magnetospheric output and resulting pulsing.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Currents_in_Jovian_Magnetosphere.png)




Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: zorgon on September 07, 2016, 10:14:23 pm
I always liked THIS one

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2d/Jupiter_magnetosphere_schematic.jpg)
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: A51Watcher on September 07, 2016, 10:37:24 pm
I always liked THIS one

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2d/Jupiter_magnetosphere_schematic.jpg)

The nice thing about that graphic is it displays how thin and stretched the magnetic rubber bands have become at that point, perhaps flapping in the solar wind like a flag.

Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: ArMaP on September 08, 2016, 01:22:13 am
So here's wiki's explanation of Callistos 'orbital eccentricity'
Is this in connection with the blinking or with something else I missed?
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: A51Watcher on September 08, 2016, 12:38:46 pm
Is this in connection with the blinking or with something else I missed?

I doubt that the blinking is considered when measuring orbital eccentricity.

I think that is considered when measuring Albedo.

Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: A51Watcher on April 23, 2017, 05:22:55 pm
Well Juno is NOT going to reach a 14 day orbit as originally planned.

Essentially the carburetor is frozen, causing timed engine firings to be delayed randomly by as much as 14 seconds, and engineers "could not find a fix that would not risk Juno’s scientific goals".

So they have decided to stay in the current 53 day orbit until 2021 if funding allows instead of 2018 as originally planned.

And still no mention by anyone anywhere of the orbital eccentricitys of the moons.

I mean what the hell, this is the first time ever we have gotten actual video footage of several moons orbiting their host planet, and it is crazy jumpy up and down!!... not smooth and rounded like all the "artist concept" animations we have been shown up till now!

Why is there no public discussion of this by the scientific community??!!

Are they too shocked privately and don't wish to appear ignorant publicly because they don't have an answer?

Is this the new rule in cosmology, to ignore strange new things we discover in the universe?

Oh great!  >:(


Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: The Seeker on April 23, 2017, 05:51:23 pm
Is this the new rule in cosmology, to ignore strange new things we discover in the universe?

Oh great!  >:(
Sounds like they are following the same protocol as main stream archaeology, 51; if they can't explain it or it doesn't fit neatly within their ideas of how it should be, they just ignore it or sweep it under the carpet;

Move along, nothing to see here...

Seeker
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: ArMaP on April 23, 2017, 05:56:42 pm
if they can't explain it or it doesn't fit neatly within their ideas of how it should be, they just ignore it or sweep it under the carpet;
In this case, we (at least some of us) are assuming that there's something anomalous, if there isn't then there's no reason to explain it.
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: The Seeker on April 23, 2017, 06:04:52 pm
In this case, we (at least some of us) are assuming that there's something anomalous, if there isn't then there's no reason to explain it.
All well and understood, Armap; but I agree with A51, the images we have been shown aren't even close to what we were led to expect, and surely others are curious as to why?

Reminds me of the emperor's new clothes...

 ::)

Seeker
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: A51Watcher on April 23, 2017, 06:30:49 pm

Actually I think this footage is further confirmation of the electric universe model put forth by the Thunderbolts Project, which has also documented mainstream science's refusal to acknowledge even recent evidence that comets are not dirty snowballs which melt as they get close to the sun, but instead rocky clumps with electric charges that interact with the suns charge.

I suspect that my charges of magnetism doing battle with gravity will eventually be proven out.


 
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: The Seeker on April 23, 2017, 06:45:42 pm
Actually I think this footage is further confirmation of the electric universe model put forth by the Thunderbolts Project, which has also documented mainstream science's refusal to acknowledge even recent evidence that comets are not dirty snowballs which melt as they get close to the sun, but instead rocky clumps with electric charges that interact with the suns charge.

I suspect that my charges of magnetism doing battle with gravity will eventually be proven out.


 
The electric universe model does offer much to consider and ponder; the solar wind which is,after all, charged particles, reacting with the cometary mass  producing an arc generating the comet's tail is far more plausible than an interstellar ice cream cone melting in the sunlight...

Seeker
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: Shasta56 on April 23, 2017, 10:40:07 pm
"Interstellar ice cream cone..."  I never thought of it that way.  Reminds me of the time Shannon was eating snow, and I told she shouldn't eat it, because she didn't know who'd peed on it.  Never saw a kid spit something out so fast!

Shasta
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: ArMaP on April 24, 2017, 07:39:07 am
All well and understood, Armap; but I agree with A51, the images we have been shown aren't even close to what we were led to expect, and surely others are curious as to why?
Most of the times, the scientists say something, the media changes it to something else and people read what they want to read, so they expect their own version of what the media told, not what the scientists told.
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: ArMaP on April 24, 2017, 07:39:57 am
Actually I think this footage is further confirmation of the electric universe model put forth by the Thunderbolts Project, which has also documented mainstream science's refusal to acknowledge even recent evidence that comets are not dirty snowballs which melt as they get close to the sun, but instead rocky clumps with electric charges that interact with the suns charge.

How does this footage confirms the electric universe model?
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: A51Watcher on April 24, 2017, 09:00:36 am
How does this footage confirms the electric universe model?

By the moons orbits indicating that they have an electric charge and accompanying magnetic field.

Not surprising considering that even smaller comets have the same.

eta: There are no other planetary bodies in the vertical plane to account for the observed vertical movement.

Horizontal movement would indicate gravitic stress but that is not what we observe.

Vertical movement indicates magnetic field stress.





Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: Littleenki on April 24, 2017, 10:34:56 am
Ahh! Good news!

"Juno's camera -- JunoCam -- also was shut down during orbit insertion, but it is back in action, taking long-distance shots that will be combined into a so-called "marble movie."

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/juno-heads-back-toward-jupiter-instruments-at-the-ready/ (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/juno-heads-back-toward-jupiter-instruments-at-the-ready/)


During the post orbital insertion news conference the mission director responded to a question about any surprises by saying the outer moon appeared much dimmer than they expected, and plan to investigate.

But no mention of the odd oscillations we see during orbit.

In watching the tracer sequence the oscillations remind me of oscilloscope display patterns, or even a heart beat monitor.

Even the first moon with the most smooth orbit of all, still displays some slight oscillations as well, with each moon outward displaying this same behaviour more pronounced the further they are away from Jupiter.     

eta: So is gravity restraining their urge to jump around or the root cause of it?

Still waiting on an explanation for this.

In an inductive circuit, like a transformer, sometimes a resonance is reached which might create a physical oscillation in either primary or secondary, depending on mass and density of the bodies in relation to their counterpart.

So, perhaps instead of Jupiter displaying a wobble such as Earth with it's precession, it's mass is forcing the moons to display the wobble as they orbit?

Maybe the moons have frozen regions with differing densities, creating a gravity based wobble, but for me the first place to look would be in the induction of electricity between Jupiter and its moons, and how the specific frequencies of those wobbles might be an indicator of what forces are being observed electrically speaking.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_resonance
Cheers
Le
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: A51Watcher on April 24, 2017, 11:06:56 am
In an inductive circuit, like a transformer, sometimes a resonance is reached which might create a physical oscillation in either primary or secondary, depending on mass and density of the bodies in relation to their counterpart.

So, perhaps instead of Jupiter displaying a wobble such as Earth with it's precession, it's mass is forcing the moons to display the wobble as they orbit?

Maybe the moons have frozen regions with differing densities, creating a gravity based wobble, but for me the first place to look would be in the induction of electricity between Jupiter and its moons, and how the specific frequencies of those wobbles might be an indicator of what forces are being observed electrically speaking.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_resonance
Cheers
Le

That is the first place to look for me as well.

Gravity displays itself as a shortest distance between two points type of force line.

Magnetism displays itself as a multi angular web, line of force -

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Currents_in_Jovian_Magnetosphere.png)


Since all the bodies in this area reside on basically the same horizontal plane, we must look to the forces that have influence outside the horizontal plane.

 
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: A51Watcher on April 24, 2017, 11:11:31 am

For details on comets NOT being flying ice cream cones and instead clumpy rocks with electric charge see the evidence here -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34wtt2EUToo


Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: ArMaP on April 24, 2017, 02:10:43 pm
Vertical movement indicates magnetic field stress.
Or something with the way the images were captured, as nobody saw that movement in the last 400 years.
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: A51Watcher on April 25, 2017, 01:41:09 am
Or something with the way the images were captured, as nobody saw that movement in the last 400 years.

Oh really. You make it sound as if we have other videos of these orbits to compare to.

Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: ArMaP on April 25, 2017, 03:34:21 am
Oh really. You make it sound as if we have other videos of these orbits to compare to.

It wasn't my intention to sound like that (and I don't think it does), my intention was to point to the fact that anyone with a good eyesight can see those moons from Earth, and that they have been followed by millions of professional and amateur astronomers for the last 400 years with the help of telescopes, and nobody recorded those jumps, something that I think would be noticed, at least since we had photography to make accurate records of their relative positions.

Also, don't forget that what we seeing is not a real video but a time-lapse video created with many individual images.
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: biggles on April 25, 2017, 05:07:38 am
Shouldn't we take into account any movement in the earth over that time as well.
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: ArMaP on April 25, 2017, 06:14:03 am
Shouldn't we take into account any movement in the earth over that time as well.
Could you be more specific? What movement over what time?
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: biggles on April 25, 2017, 06:24:46 am
Well doesn't the earth move a degree or so over a period of time.

I'm talking about movement of the earth in the sky, could play a part in; hell I forgot what it was now.
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: ArMaP on April 25, 2017, 08:06:12 am
Considering the distance between Earth and Jupiter and the distance between Jupiter's moons and the closest reference points, Jupiter and the other moons, the change in position of the Earth would not be noticeable.

Also, we have other photos from several other missions (specially Voyager 1 and 2, Galileo and Cassini) that would not be affected by the Earth's movement but would notice a jump in Callisto's orbit.
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: A51Watcher on April 25, 2017, 06:11:06 pm
It wasn't my intention to sound like that (and I don't think it does), my intention was to point to the fact that anyone with a good eyesight can see those moons from Earth, and that they have been followed by millions of professional and amateur astronomers for the last 400 years with the help of telescopes, and nobody recorded those jumps, something that I think would be noticed, at least since we had photography to make accurate records of their relative positions.

Also, don't forget that what we seeing is not a real video but a time-lapse video created with many individual images.

That's my point exactly. We need time lapse to be able to see the oscillations at all!

Looking at the orbits in real time would as useful as watching the hour hand of a clock in real time.

Time lapse is the only way you would be able to see it move.

Also the orbital movements are pretty small even with Juno's close proximity. Looking all the way from earth would make the movements look even smaller.

If the wobble was being caused by a defect in how it was filmed as you allege, we would see matching wobble in all the objects, and we do not.

Selective wobble caused by a defect on one object only is beyond the pale imo.

I'm keepin my chips on black, you are welcome to keep yours on red. In the end we will see who turns out to be correct.   


Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: The Seeker on April 25, 2017, 06:17:39 pm
I'm keepin my chips on black, you are welcome to keep yours on red. In the end we will see who turns out to be correct.
20 bucks on 13 Black, please...

 8)

Seeker
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: ArMaP on April 26, 2017, 01:21:47 am
That's my point exactly. We need time lapse to be able to see the oscillations at all!
So you don't think that an astronomer with a telescope pointed to Callisto would notice a change in its orbit? Or that all the other probes with a camera pointing to Callisto would not record a change in position?

Quote
Also the orbital movements are pretty small even with Juno's close proximity. Looking all the way from earth would make the movements look even smaller.
If we see Callisto changing position then it means that it changed at least one pixel up or down. If we see it as being two pixels wide then it would mean it would jump approximately half its size, which would be noticeable for any one tracking it's course through the sky.

Quote
If the wobble was being caused by a defect in how it was filmed as you allege, we would see matching wobble in all the objects, and we do not.
I didn't say it was caused by a defect in how it was filmed, first of all because this was not filmed, was photographed.

Quote
I'm keepin my chips on black, you are welcome to keep yours on red. In the end we will see who turns out to be correct.
I don't gamble.
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: A51Watcher on April 26, 2017, 09:17:23 pm
So you don't think that an astronomer with a telescope pointed to Callisto would notice a change in its orbit? Or that all the other probes with a camera pointing to Callisto would not record a change in position?

Apparently not

If we see Callisto changing position then it means that it changed at least one pixel up or down. If we see it as being two pixels wide then it would mean it would jump approximately half its size, which would be noticeable for any one tracking it's course through the sky.

Apparently no one has bothered to. How about when you took that picture of Jupiter.
Did you take another and see if the position had changed?
How about several hours and days apart?
Did you zoom in and pinpoint it's location exactly each time?

If not why not?
Everyone else does.



I didn't say it was caused by a defect in how it was filmed, first of all because this was not filmed, was photographed.

It was image captured.

It was photon recorded.

Too tired to go on.


I don't gamble.

Except when you make statements you are not 100% sure of.


And... the primary point of contention is why Callisto wobbles while Jupiter itself remains completely stationary as do all the other moons.

It does so in all fields, left, right and center.

And Callisto was not photographed separately.

They were all filmed together.  :P


 

Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: A51Watcher on April 26, 2017, 10:08:57 pm
Apparently others have noticed.

"Orbital characteristics

Callisto orbits Jupiter at a mean distance of about 1.9 million kilometers and takes 17 days to make a complete orbit around Jupiter (and a complete rotation on its own axis).

Like other moons that orbit their primaries as closely as does Callisto, Callisto is tidally locked and keeps the same hemisphere toward Jupiter at all times.

Callisto's orbit is more eccentric than those of the other Galilean moons (yeah no foolin) (except for Europa), and is slightly inclined to Jupiter's equator.

Callisto does not resonate in its orbit with Ganymede and the other two Galilean moons; in fact its sidereal month is slightly more than twice as long as that of Ganymede.

Callisto is, however, subject to tidal stresses on account of the eccentricity of its orbit."


"Its orbit is very slightly eccentric and inclined to the Jovian equator, with the eccentricity and inclination changing quasi-periodically due to solar and planetary gravitational perturbations on a timescale of centuries.

The ranges of change are 0.0072–0.0076 and 0.20–0.60°, respectively. These orbital variations cause the axial tilt (the angle between rotational and orbital axes) to vary between 0.4 and 1.6°."

Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: ArMaP on April 27, 2017, 05:06:51 pm
Apparently no one has bothered to. How about when you took that picture of Jupiter.
Did you take another and see if the position had changed?
How about several hours and days apart?
Did you zoom in and pinpoint it's location exactly each time?

If not why not?
I did take more than one photo, but only to have more possibilities of taking a good photo, my intention was not to study Callisto's orbit, it was only to see if that was Jupiter and it's satellites.

Quote
Everyone else does.
Really?

Quote
Except when you make statements you are not 100% sure of.
It's not the same thing.

Quote
And Callisto was not photographed separately.

They were all filmed together.  :P
True, but did you see how the camera works? The camera is fixed and the probe rotates while taking the photos, so if using a longer exposure things will become blurred vertically unless they activate a special "filter" that moves the image up or down a specific number of pixels to compensate the movement. I think the "jumping" could be related to that.

Quote
Apparently others have noticed.
They are talking about a different.
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: A51Watcher on April 27, 2017, 07:15:03 pm
I did take more than one photo, but only to have more possibilities of taking a good photo, my intention was not to study Callisto's orbit, it was only to see if that was Jupiter and it's satellites.

Really you made it sound as if everyone for the last 400 years had meticulously been pinpointing Callisto's exact location all this time.

Really?

See above comment.

It's not the same thing.

Sure it is. If not 100% sure of your statement, you are gambling it is correct.

True, but did you see how the camera works? The camera is fixed and the probe rotates while taking the photos, so if using a longer exposure things will become blurred vertically unless they activate a special "filter" that moves the image up or down a specific number of pixels to compensate the movement. I think the "jumping" could be related to that.

Yes I saw. Maybe, but it doesn't seem likely since Callisto is the only object affected by said filtering or lack thereof.

If Jupiter were jumping around as well or the other moons, you could make a case for that.

But they don't.




They are talking about a different.


A different eccentricity? Lateral movement as opposed to vertical?

That could be. Point is - even in that article Callisto is pegged as the most eccentric of all.



I'll keep your bet on 13 red.  ;)

Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: A51Watcher on April 27, 2017, 07:32:54 pm


Anyone know of the Nasa contact or comment page for the Juno mission?

Someone needs to ask them directly if Callisto is jumping around or if their imagery just plain sucks.

Diplomatically of course.  ;)

 
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: ArMaP on April 28, 2017, 06:07:34 am
A different eccentricity? Lateral movement as opposed to vertical?
Yes, orbit eccentricity is the shape of the orbit. A non-eccentric orbit is a perfect circle, the less circle-like and more ellipse-like the orbit is the more eccentric it is. The Earth's orbit has an eccentricity of 0.0167, Callisto 0.0074, so the Earth's orbit is more eccentric than Callisto's.
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: ArMaP on April 28, 2017, 06:13:51 am
Anyone know of the Nasa contact or comment page for the Juno mission?

Someone needs to ask them directly if Callisto is jumping around or if their imagery just plain sucks.

Diplomatically of course.  ;)
I tried three different emails, one for Malin (the camera makers), and two for the JunoCam Principal Investigators, and today I got an answer from one of the Principal Investigators, Dr. Candice Hansen:

Quote
It just had to do with the frequency of our images.  Also, Callisto was borderline to detect so occasionally it didn't show up.

It sounds like she isn't sure. :)
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: The Seeker on April 28, 2017, 07:11:41 pm

Anyone know of the Nasa contact or comment page for the Juno mission?

Someone needs to ask them directly if Callisto is jumping around or if their imagery just plain sucks.

Diplomatically of course.  ;)
Appears to me that Callisto is hopping around, and yes, their imagery sucks like a Dyson  ;D

After all, we are talking about Never A Straight Answer...

Seeker
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: A51Watcher on April 28, 2017, 07:49:24 pm
Appears to me that Callisto is hopping around, and yes, their imagery sucks like a Dyson  ;D

After all, we are talking about Never A Straight Answer...

Seeker

I don't doubt that Nasa could cheap out and use a sh!t camera.

After all it's only a Billion dollar probe flying a Billion miles away why not save a few dollars on the camera?

It's using a wide angle lens, who knows what make model and manufacturer.

But the occurrence in all quadrants while the other objects do not, makes this low on the plausibility scale.

Sure Callisto is dimmer than the other moons but so what?

What kind of crap lens would move a low light pixel around?

And now one of the project managers doesn't even know what we're talking about.  ::)

Wow these scientists and astronomers sure are keeping fastidious records of these orbits as alleged.  :-X

 
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: ArMaP on April 29, 2017, 07:18:42 am
I don't doubt that Nasa could cheap out and use a sh!t camera.
JunoCam is a "public outreach" instrument, not a scientific instrument.

As they say here (https://www.missionjuno.swri.edu/pub/e/downloads/JunoCam_Junos_Outreach_Camera.pdf):

Quote
The scientific themes of the Juno mission are to study the interior, atmosphere, and magnetosphere of Jupiter (Bolton et al., this issue). The spacecraft has been highly optimized for the operation of its seven science instruments, leading to a solar-powered, sun-pointing, spinning design. Such a platform presents challenges for imaging, both from motion blur and pointing geometry. But it was appreciated that visible imaging is an important component of public engagement for any mission. So a visible camera, Junocam, was included primarily for education and public outreach (EPO), funded from the mission’s EPO budget
and given a fairly constrained allocation of spacecraft mass resources
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: ArMaP on May 02, 2017, 03:26:35 pm
I got an answer to my first email, to Malin Space Science Systems.

Quote
There are two reasons.  First, Callisto is the dimmest of the large satellites of Jupiter and so is less obvious in some images than the others.  But more importantly, Junocam takes images in relatively narrow strips.  For the Jupiter approach movie, we had to take a full 360 degree swath of sky because we could not predict in advance where Jupiter would be as the spacecraft spun.  To simplify processing, we used computer vision software to locate Jupiter in each swath and all further processing was done with the single image strip that contained Jupiter (one strip each for red, green, and blue).  Depending on the geometry, sometimes Callisto did not appear in the same strip as Jupiter in one or more colors, and in some cases, in none of them.  In the final movie, this resulted in Callisto seeming to twinkle or become invisible, but this was not a real effect.  If we went back to reprocess the original raw data, we could track Callisto across multiple strips, and perhaps some amateur will do this once the data are released to the Planetary Data System.

This is distinct from the moons actually disappearing and reappearing as they enter and leave the shadow of Jupiter (they're still there, of course, but too dark to see.)  This can be seen many times for Io, Europa, and Ganymede, but I don't believe this happened for Callisto during the approach period.

Regards,

Malin Space Science Systems - Juno Team=
Title: Re: Breaking News!! - Juno Probe sends back first home movies of Jupiter!!
Post by: The Seeker on May 02, 2017, 06:23:46 pm
I got an answer to my first email, to Malin Space Science Systems.
But they did not address the vertical movement of Callisto, just it winking in and out...

Seeker