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Author Topic: what's to be done with the OLD nuclear stuff.  (Read 5875 times)

sky otter

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what's to be done with the OLD nuclear stuff.
« on: February 04, 2013, 03:01:21 pm »

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20130201-roll-forward-the-doomsday-train


Code Red
| 4 February 2013
IN ASSOCIATION WITH
Roll forward the doomsday train
Sharon Weinberger About the authorSharon is a 2012/13 fellow at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars in Washington DC, where she is working on a history of the Pentagon's Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency. Her writing on military science and technology has appeared in Nature, Discover, Slate, Wired, the Washington Post Magazine, and the Financial Times, among other publications. She is the co-author of A Nuclear Family Vacation: Travels in the World of Atomic Weaponry (Bloomsbury, 2008) and the author of Imaginary Weapons: A Journey Through the Pentagon's Scientific Underworld (Nations Books, 2006).
Science & Environment Technology Engineering Military Train Weapon


The US is mulling over radical ideas for how to operate and deploy its aging cache of nuclear missiles – including a vast subway network.

By the middle of this century, a large chunk of the United States’ nuclear arsenal could be located on a doomsday subway system, where unmanned cars move back and forth on a single track, prepared to launch at a moment’s notice.

Or a least that’s one of several ideas that the Air Force is potentially mulling over as it prepares to replace its decades’ old intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs). To jumpstart those preparations, the Air Force earlier this month released an open call for proposals that would help the Air Force decide what the future land-based nuclear force would look like for the 50-year period starting in 2025.

At stake is a part of the nation’s rapidly aging nuclear arsenal, which consists of the "triad" of land-based ICBMs, submarine-launched missiles, and bombers armed with nuclear weapons.

Supporters of this deterrent argue that, despite the end of the Cold War, it is still needed to deter a potential enemy from threatening the United States with nuclear weapons, or even other weapons of mass destruction. “The official reason is still one of flexibility, and survivability in the event of a nuclear attack,” says Ivan Oelrich, a long-time defense analyst and expert on nuclear issues. “The real unspoken argument is bureaucratic inertia.”

In recent years, some US Pentagon officials have questioned whether keeping all three elements of this costly triad is really needed, though no changes have yet been made. In the meantime, parts of the system are rapidly approaching their use by date. The current ICBM, the Minuteman III, is expected to reach the end of its life by 2030.

Of the five different ideas the Air Force is currently exploring, the underground tunnel concept would be one of the more dramatic changes from the current system, which has missiles located in fixed, underground silos spread out across three bases. The tunnels would in theory allow the missile to survive direct nuclear attacks, since an enemy wouldn’t know precisely where the missile is located at any given time.

“The tunnel concept mode operates similar to a subway system but with only a single transporter/launcher and missile dedicated to a given tunnel,” the Air Force says.  “The vehicle moves at random down the length of the tunnel.”

That, however, is not the only possible new system. Another concept involves putting the missiles above ground, perhaps on specialised vehicles called “transporter erector launchers.” Those vehicles may have to venture on to public roads or lands, according to the Air Force, or even travel off road.

‘Fancy ideas’

While the idea of off-road vehicles and underground trains transporting nukes may sound wild, the Air Force says it’s also considering more basic options, such as simply keeping the current Minuteman III through until 2075, or undertaking modifications to the system. Yet another option would be building a new missile that would replace the Minuteman, but still use underground silos.

None of these proposals are right around the corner, cautions retired Lt. Gen. Frank Klotz, who last served as the commander of Air Force Global Strike Command, which is responsible for the US ICBMs, as well as nuclear-armed bombers.  “The purpose of sending out the request for concepts is to flesh out the ideas in greater detail so that at some point, they can be subjected to intense analysis as to the cost, feasibility, and operational effectiveness,” says Klotz, who is now a senior fellow at the Council for Foreign Relations.

While any such proposal for underground tunnels or mobile ICBMs is likely far off in the future, he says that such options are not necessarily more expensive in the long run, since it would allow the Air Force to consolidate its operations. When the Minuteman missile was first deployed some 50 years ago, the concept was to disperse them to reduce their vulnerability to a Soviet attack. But maintaining and protecting missiles over such a large area, such as paying for vehicle fuel, can be burdensome.

Today, missile fields are spread out across three bases: the smallest, at Minot Air Force Base in North Dakota, covers some 22,000 sq km (8,500 sq mi). “That’s roughly the size of the state of New Jersey,” Klotz says.

Arms control experts agree that a mobile ICBM force is probably not around the corner. The recent Air Force announcement “is a preliminary first step to explore theoretical options for replacement of the Minuteman III ICBM force,” says Daryl Kimball, executive director of the Washington DC-based Arms Control Association.

Kimball points out that the US has cut its nuclear arsenal in recent years - there are currently just 420 Minuteman IIIs, and to invest now in an entirely new system makes little sense.  “The reality is that the current plans for modernising the strategic triad, which were developed years ago, is too costly given the current budget environment,” he says.

The idea of putting a nuclear weapon on a moving vehicle is also too risky, according to Hans Kristensen, director of the Nuclear Information Project at the Federation of American Scientists. “This notion of rolling around on country roads and rural areas, with an increased risk of accidents, seems to be a step back in this day and age,” he says.

But this is not the first time the Air Force has looked at mobile ICBMs, Kristensen notes. In the 1980s, the government debated putting the Peacekeeper missile on trains, or even “race tracks.”

“At the end of the day, all these options were way too expensive and they ended up in silos,” he says. “You can come up with fancy ideas, but the reality check at the end of the day is: what is needed, what is necessary, and how much can we afford?”

The mostly like outcome is that the United States will simply keep the Minuteman III, and refurbish it as it has done before. It just finished a multi-billion dollar refit, which involved updating everything from fuel to guidance parts, and the end result is a nearly “new” missile.

Repeating that refurbishment to keep the Minuteman III going until 2075 is the most likely path for the Air Force, according to Kristensen. “Mobile and tunnel systems, that’s a pie in the sky,” he says.

If you would like to comment on this story or anything else you have seen on Future, head over to our Facebook page or message us on Twitter.


Offline Ellirium113

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Re: what's to be done with the OLD nuclear stuff.
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2013, 03:12:01 pm »
Geez, it's a shame they couldn't launch all that crap out into space, but who would it affect out there?  ::)

sky otter

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Re: what's to be done with the OLD nuclear stuff.
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2013, 03:13:54 pm »



opps..forgot to add the link to send your ideas to..


https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=b588ffed58743dc3de0f63a8ab9ede87&tab=core&_cview=1

Broad Agency Announcement - GBSD Concept Development
Solicitation Number: BAA-AFNWC-XZ-13-001
Agency: Department of the Air Force
Office: Air Force Materiel Command
Location: AFNWC/PZI - Kirtland, Installation Contracting Division

Offline zorgon

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Re: what's to be done with the OLD nuclear stuff.
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2013, 04:30:47 pm »
Wow Deja-Vu

I was sure they already did that in Utah... had the underground trains for the Minute Man. Last i heard they let the Russians tour the site in the 90's  I had that article somewhere in my pile...


Here we go the original above ground test on railway cars... seems it was a success...

Quote
During the early development phase of Minuteman, the Strategic Air Command favored the concept of deploying at least a portion of the programmed force (from 50 to 150 ICBMs) on railroad cars. SAC submitted a requirement to the Air Staff on 12 February 1959 calling for the first mobile Minuteman unit to be operational no later than January 1963. To determine the feasibility of deploying Minuteman ICBMs on mobile launchers, SAC ordered a series of tests to be conducted, nicknamed "Operation Big Star." Beginning 20 June 1960, a modified test train, operating out of Hill Air Force Base, Utah, traveled across the western and central United States so technicians could study factors such as the ability of the nation's railroads to support mobile missile trains; problems associated with command, control, and communications; the effect of vibration on sensitive missiles and launch equipment; and human factors involved in the operation of a mobile missile system. Originally, six trial runs were projected, but only four were necessary to realize all test objectives. On 27 August 1960, the last of four Minuteman ICBM test trains arrived back at Hill AFB and the Air Force announced that the test of the Minuteman mobility concept had been completed satisfactorily.

Quote
As a result of U.S. initiatives to cancel development programs for new intercontinental ballistic missiles and retire the Peacekeeper ICBM, Minuteman will become the only land-based ICBM in the Triad. To compensate for termination of the Small ICBM and Peacekeeper Rail Garrison programs, DOD will conduct an extensive life extension program to keep Minuteman viable beyond the turn of the century. These major programs include replacement of the aging guidance system, remanufacture of the solid-propellant rocket motors, replacement of standby power systems, repair of launch facilities, and installation of updated, survivable communications equipment and new command and control consoles to enhance immediate communications.

Okay so the test was successful... and Strategic Air Command wanted to push ahead with the rail systems... and then we here "too expensive"?  Well "too expensive" is military CODE for "gone black ops"  :D

Now I know I have the underground rail system for Utah here somewhere, with an entrance at Hill but also one in Salt lake City. That was the portal they took the Russian into. It was in a local paper

SOURCE: Minuteman Missile History


Offline thorfourwinds

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Re: what's to be done with the OLD nuclear stuff.
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2013, 05:00:37 pm »
Greetings:

Nice rabbit warren.    8)

Quote
The development of more advanced missiles resulted in the Thor being retired from military service in 1963. 

However, some of the missiles were modified and used extensively for space research, either as a single-stage booster or in combination with various types of upper stages for such projects as the Tiros, Telstar, Pioneer, and Discoverer programs.

Something tells us that you have files on this Thor.   :o

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Offline zorgon

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Re: what's to be done with the OLD nuclear stuff.
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2013, 05:12:58 pm »
Something tells us that you have files on this Thor.   :o

Other than your rap sheet? :P  yeah sure... I will get right on it   :o



 ::)

Need a Sexatary  :P


Offline zorgon

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Re: what's to be done with the OLD nuclear stuff.
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2013, 05:20:01 pm »

Thor missile No. 47 being launched at Vandenberg AFB 13th December.1960


Sqn Ldr J.C. Burch=s 1st detachment to USA during 1959, taken at Davis Monthan AFB, Tucson, Arizona


Thor missile Number 51 on its launching trailer in Harrington Road at Rothwell


A Chief Technician in the Electronics Control Trailer


Thor missile being elevated into launch position following retraction of the shelter


Thor being elevated to launch position


Detachment commanded by Sqn Ldr J.C. Burch on WELCOME 6 continuation training at Strategic Air Command's Vandenberg AFB, California, USA from 1st Nov - 22nd Dec 1960.

http://www.harringtonmuseum.org.uk/CBurchMem.htm


Thor missile being unloaded from C-124 Globemaster

http://www.harringtonmuseum.org.uk/ThorUK.htm

Offline zorgon

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Re: what's to be done with the OLD nuclear stuff.
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2013, 05:21:18 pm »
And one for the Future Terrorists :P


Offline thorfourwinds

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Re: what's to be done with the OLD nuclear stuff.
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2013, 05:40:48 pm »
You showed your office     ;)

Here's mine     :P

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Offline The Seeker

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Re: what's to be done with the OLD nuclear stuff.
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2013, 07:11:58 pm »
Perhaps i am getting feeble in my old age, but i seem to recall the mx mobile missile system from the reagan years...


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Offline spacemaverick

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Re: what's to be done with the OLD nuclear stuff.
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2013, 08:42:03 pm »
And one for the Future Terrorists :P



Wow!  I had one of those when I was a kid!  Oh boy, do I feel old now....
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Offline robomont

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Re: what's to be done with the OLD nuclear stuff.
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2013, 11:15:42 pm »
i say retire them.it wont be long and china would be able to shoot them down anyway.
if we have an underground train system,then one haarp inspired quake could flood and shut us down.

subs are safest way for now.nk proved that with the launch off the cali coast
ive never been much for rules.
being me has its priviledges.

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